# A123.. another social engineering project gone wrong \[gov't investment in lithium ion battery maker\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912 "2012-10-16T18:51:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_nice_guy_with_an_opinion)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/81 "2012-10-20T01:22:58Z")
More great green news… > [@](#): > > [http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/target\_8/Volt-no-jolt-LG-Chem-employees-idle](http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/target_8/Volt-no-jolt-LG-Chem-employees-idle) > > Factory has yet to ship out a single battery > By Ken Kolker > HOLLAND, Mich. (WOOD) - Workers at LG Chem, a $300 million lithium-ion battery plant heavily funded by taxpayers, tell Target 8 that they have so little work to do that they spend hours playing cards and board games, reading magazines or watching movies. > > They say it’s been going on for months. > > “There would be up to 40 of us that would just sit in there during the day,” said former LG Chem employee Nicole Merryman, who said she quit in May. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/82 "2012-10-20T01:26:39Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > I would have preferred that the company made its own way. I don’t want the government to pick losers and losers. First, note that this company received preferential treatment from the Bush administration, the Obama administration, and (surprise, surprise) the Romney administration in in role as [Governor](http://www.autoblog.com/2012/10/16/battery-maker-a123-systems-defaults-on-loan-files-for-bankruptc/) of Massachusetts. Second, I know it’s popular to repeat the mantra that the government should not pick winners and losers, but the reality is that it’s nearly impossible to avoid doing so if you want the government to encourage any sort of specific economic growth or to set up rules and regulations. Even government inaction is picking winners and losers. Picking winners and losers a major thing governments around the world have done since their inception. More importantly, it’s only when Obama does it on an issue is more closely aligned with the progressive movement (even though it had bi-partisan support), that people start trotting out this tired mantra about government picking winners and losers. It’s seems clever, but even a cursory review of history will disabuse you of the fact that such a stance is ahistorical and myopic. Since you are so big on the government not picking winners, do you have a problem with the government giving out student loans and grants? Should they fund colleges, or build roads? What about them leasing land to oil companies to drill on? Do you not want them to bribe pharma companies to produce vaccines? Should they fund the NIH? The market may in most cases be more efficient in many cases, but it’s not always fairer or better in the long term for the public. That’s when the government needs to intervene. Will their “interference” always be prudent or efficacious? Or course not, but that’s not because government is bad, it’s because no one can predict the future with 100% accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/83 "2012-10-20T02:12:07Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > … The market may in most cases be more efficient in many cases, but it’s not always fairer or better in the long term for the public… I really don’t understand this. What is ‘efficient’, then? It can produce goods or services at the lowest cost? What good is that if no one, or not enough people, make enough money to buy them? The Market does not recognize the complete cost of production, not just the infrastructure, but educating the workers, dealing with waste, ensuring customers have the means to purchase the goods (that would be paying a living wage) … We need regulation, infrastructure, and a social safety net to maintain a healthy economy. As others have noted, we need to invest, and sometimes investments go south. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/84 "2012-10-20T04:06:30Z")
The energy produced by breaking down the atom is a very poor kind of thing. Anyone who expects a source of power from the transformations of these atoms is talking moonshine.” ~ _Lord Ernest Rutherford_ Clean, cheap green energy. OK, maybe impossible. What if it isn’t? Nuclear power is as close as we’ve come, and we’re pretty close. We have promising possibilities, but we don’t have our Tesla, our Einstein, our singular genius with a epochal insight. If we can tap into such energy, we could set off a revolution in human living. Cheap green energy would be the staunchest enemy to our ancient foes: hunger, misery, and ignorance. What if it is possible, but we don’t do it, and somebody else does? Is that a threat? Dunno. But speaking as an all-American, red-blooded flag waving radical lefty, I want it to be America that leads the way. America, fuck yeah! For real this time. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/85 "2012-10-20T13:45:59Z")
[Germany is now producing nearly half of their daytime electricity with solar energy.](http://knowledgetoday.wharton.upenn.edu/2012/05/sunspots-germany-proves-solar-energy-is-no-mirage/) No way that was going to happen without subsidies to create it. Deriding government subsidies for new technologies as “social engineering” is fucking stupid assed luddite-ism. Governments have always been involved in new technologies in one form or another going back to ancient days. What governments can do involves economies of scale, cooperation and investment that won’t happen otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/86 "2012-10-20T14:11:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How in the hell is the carbon credits market going to make Al Gore rich? Does he get a cut? Gore was going to run an exchange for the credits. Big polluter buys credits from small polluter-Gore gets a commission/cut. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/87 "2012-10-20T14:57:05Z")
So, if you don’t like change coming from the government, and you don’t like change coming from folks motivated by making a profit on it, where _do_ you want it to come from? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/88 "2012-10-20T15:20:12Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > [Germany is now producing nearly half of their daytime electricity with solar energy.](http://knowledgetoday.wharton.upenn.edu/2012/05/sunspots-germany-proves-solar-energy-is-no-mirage/) > > No way that was going to happen without subsidies to create it. > > Deriding government subsidies for new technologies as “social engineering” is fucking stupid assed luddite-ism. Governments have always been involved in new technologies in one form or another going back to ancient days. What governments can do involves economies of scale, cooperation and investment that won’t happen otherwise. The key is “daytime energy”-PV doesn’t work at night, or during those dark winter days that German is famous for. The Germans could have built nice new nuclear plants (self regulating pebble bed reactors). But the Green party prevailed..and now Germany is stuck with antiquated, expensive PV farms that don’t return the investment spent on them. BTW-is there enough lead in the world to make batteries to store PV energy? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/89 "2012-10-20T15:34:04Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > BTW-is there enough lead in the world to make batteries to store PV energy? Who uses lead for batteries anymore? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/90 "2012-10-20T15:58:19Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Gore was going to run an exchange for the credits. Big polluter buys credits from small polluter-Gore gets a commission/cut. Prove it. Take your time, I’ll remind you. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/91 "2012-10-20T18:23:57Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The key is “daytime energy”-PV doesn’t work at night, or during those dark winter days that German is famous for. The Germans could have built nice new nuclear plants (self regulating pebble bed reactors). But the Green party prevailed..and now Germany is stuck with antiquated, expensive PV farms that don’t return the investment spent on them. > BTW-is there enough lead in the world to make batteries to store PV energy? I posted [this link](http://grist.org/wind-power/2011-04-15-no-trees-big-battery-texas-to-install-worlds-largest-wind/) in the green car thread, but looks like it will come in handy here too: > [@](#): > > In wind-blown West Texas, the region’s massive turbine farms can generate more electricity than the grid can handle at some times while all but ceasing production at other times. That creates headaches for grid operators, and the ability to store wind energy and release it when needed would help smooth out the ebbs and flows of the electricity stream. > > “This system will store excess wind energy and discharge it whenever demand for electricity is highest — not just when wind turbine blades are turning. In addition to increasing the supply of renewable energy during periods of peak demand,” Duke said in a statement. They’re building 36MW battery for a 151MW wind farm. They aren’t the only guys doing it. At this scale, flow batteries make sense (though you can build them as lithium-ion too). Flow batteries use [vanadium pentoxide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery), [zinc bromine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc%E2%80%93bromine_battery), or a combination. There may be other chemistries, I am not an expert frankly. > [@Chimera](#): > > Who uses lead for batteries anymore? :dubious: IT departments use [UPS batteries](http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=battery+ups&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=3169453941&ref=pd_sl_6i75j5srcw_b). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/92 "2012-10-20T21:07:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **ralph124c** : > > The key is “daytime energy”-PV doesn’t work at night, or during those dark winter days that German is famous for. So? Power consumption is significantly higher during the day than at night. Which makes half of the daytime energy a pretty hefty chunk. Yes, it’s less than half, but that’s still a lot, for a non-fossil-fuel technology. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/93 "2012-10-20T22:26:37Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > IT departments use [UPS batteries](http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=battery+ups&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=3169453941&ref=pd_sl_6i75j5srcw_b). But no one is going to use lead-acid batteries for large scale storage. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/94 "2012-10-22T04:58:17Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > When you say “we”… > > Sorry. If you want to invest in “green”, go ahead. I would never stop you. Just don’t make me. > > I’d rather make money. > > When Green wins, you’ll win big too. > > Maybe I’ll invest when I think I’ll get a return. That is the argument for government funding of basic research. Because the market will NEVER engage in it. The risk reward ratio to an individual company is too limited. I don’t think we should be funding companies, I think we should have a space program for alternative energy. > [@ralph124c](#): > > All of this “Green Energy” stuff was predicated upon “Cap and Trade” being passed by Congress. The idea was to artificially increase the price of energy to American business and consumers. At gasoline prices of \>$7.00/gallon, electric cars would make sense. > Of course, the carbon credits market would also make guys like Al Gore enormously rich, while impoverishing ordinary Americans. It would also exacerbate the movement of jobs to India and China (two places that will never sign up for carbon credits). They signed up and even if they didn’t, there is a thing called a carbon import tax. If China doesn’t participate in a comprehensive global carbon regime, we tax their exports to pay for the carbon credits created that would put China in compliance. > [@j666](#): > > Does any one has a link to contemporaneous objective evidence of this/these statements? (Like a WH press release, congressional budget bill, …?) I’d really like to be able to say, “Didn’t you read S. 5720 from 2002? Section IV or V, I think …” in my next argument. > **[Solyndra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra#Government_support_and_politics)** > > Solyndra was a manufacturer of cylindrical panels of copper indium gallium selenide (CIGS) thin film solar cells. It was based in Fremont, California. In 2009, the Obama administration co-signed $535 million in loans to Solyndra. > Heavily promoted as a leader in the sustainable energy sector for its unusual technology, Solyndra was not able to compete with conventional solar panel manufacturers of crystalline silicon. The company filed for bankruptcy on September 1, 2011. > Chris Gronet founded... “The majority of Solyndra funding was provided under Title XVII section 1705 of the Energy Policy Act of 2005 (as amended by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act). Title 1705 has provided $36 billion in loan guarantees for renewable energy projects.[20] As of May 16, 2012, “The 1705 loan guarantee program has provided loan guarantees to projects worth $16.1 billion,” about 2% of total federal loan guarantees.” > **[Energy Policy Act of 2005](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005)** > > The Energy Policy Act of 2005 (Pub. L. 109–58 (text) (PDF)) is a federal law signed by President George W. Bush on August 8, 2005, at Sandia National Laboratories in Albuquerque, New Mexico. The act, described by proponents as an attempt to combat growing energy problems, changed US energy policy by providing tax incentives and loan guarantees for energy production of various types. The most consequential aspect of the law was to greatly increase ethanol production to be blended with gasolin The source of the Solyndra funds is not exactly a secret. The scandal with Solyndra wasn’t that government is funding alternative energy, it was that a company that Obama’s administration funded flamed out in a big way. They tried to make hay over the fact that the government allowed the government guaranteed debt to be subordinated to subsequently acquired debt. I don’t know if this was legal but it is entirely routine for new lenders to demand priority over old lenders and then the old lenders have a choice, either let the new guy have priority or watch the enterprise go bankrupt and lose everything anyways. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Gore was going to run an exchange for the credits. Big polluter buys credits from small polluter-Gore gets a commission/cut. cite. > [@Chimera](#): > > But no one is going to use lead-acid batteries for large scale storage. I prefer really large pendulums as a method of storing energy ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/95 "2012-10-22T07:37:17Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > I would have preferred that the company made its own way. I don’t want the government to pick losers and losers. Other governments do. And if we’re playing international checkers, you don’t move, you forfeit. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/96 "2012-10-22T07:53:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I prefer really large pendulums as a method of storing energy Not sure if you’re being sarcastic but that’s actually an interesing topic. I can’t find the article right now but I once read that really big heavy flywheels would be a good way to store energy and then convert it back to electrical power when needed. I would imagine you’d need some really good bearings though. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/97 "2012-10-22T08:28:35Z")
**Adaher** , I wonder if you would care to comment on [this](http://in3.dem.ist.utl.pt/master/stpolicy03/temas/tema6_1a.pdf) study at all? Most specifically (to quote just a very short part) > [@](#): > > 1. Conclusions > 6.1. Findings > In this study, we have critically reviewed the > literature on the economic benefits of publicly funded > research. As we have seen, this literature falls into > three main categories. One consists of econometric > studies, where there have been numerous attempts to > estimate the impact of research Žin general. on productivity. > Virtually all have found a positive rate of > return, and in most cases the figure has been comparatively > high. Aren’t a couple of things obvious to you… 1. “green” technology is the way of the future 2. There is underinvestment from the private sector in green technology 3. Govt funding will spur investment and let the US take the lead for the future. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/98 "2012-10-22T08:32:55Z")
And by the way… [Guess who](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14201939) leads the world in green energy investment? And did you know about [this](http://eponline.com/blogs/environmental-protection-blog/2011/10/china-makes-green-tech-companies-an-offer-they-cant-refuse.aspx)? But you know what? I’d be willing to bet that in 10 or 15 years, when the US is behind in green technology, it will be the right screaming the loudest about how US innovation was passed by because of stupid democrat policies ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/99 "2012-10-22T15:34:21Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Not sure if you’re being sarcastic but that’s actually an interesing topic. > I can’t find the article right now but I once read that really big heavy flywheels would be a good way to store energy and then convert it back to electrical power when needed. I would imagine you’d need some really good bearings though. Flywheels can provide 120 wh/kg, compared with 25 for lead acid and 350 for lithium, from the chart on page 2 [here](http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf). I’ve wondered if a superconductor flywheel could work- if the thing floats magnetically, there would be very little friction… ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912/100 "2012-10-22T16:14:22Z")
Well if all you wind/solar advocates are correct, the widespread abandonment of fossil fuels should have the effect of decreasing oil and cola prices. Suppose Germany accomplishes the impossible, and is able to run its economy on solar and wind energy. What does that do to its coal-mining industry? Seems to me that lower fossil fuel prices will just encourage places like India and China to use more of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a123-another-social-engineering-project-gone-wrong-govt-investment-in-lithium-ion-battery-maker/637912.md?page=6)