# AA is a religious organization **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2007, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062 "2007-01-07T17:23:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/41 "2007-01-07T21:56:26Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] Why not? [/QUOTE] > **[Sacredness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred)** > > Sacred describes something that is dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity; is considered worthy of spiritual respect or devotion; or inspires awe or reverence among believers. The property is often ascribed to objects (a "sacred artifact" that is venerated and blessed), or places ("sacred ground"). The word sacred descends from the Latin sacer, referring to that which is 'consecrated, dedicated' or 'purified' to the gods or anything in their power, as well as to sacerdotes... because nothing in AA meets this definition, not even close IMO ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/42 "2007-01-07T22:08:53Z")
[QUOTE=outlierrn] > **[Sacredness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred)** > > Sacred describes something that is dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity; is considered worthy of spiritual respect or devotion; or inspires awe or reverence among believers. The property is often ascribed to objects (a "sacred artifact" that is venerated and blessed), or places ("sacred ground"). The word sacred descends from the Latin sacer, referring to that which is 'consecrated, dedicated' or 'purified' to the gods or anything in their power, as well as to sacerdotes... because nothing in AA meets this definition, not even close IMO [/QUOTE] There are concepts in AA that are unquestionably believed and revered by followers. That these concepts are generally (I imagine it varies) not thought to have come from the higher power but only to speak truthfully about a higher power is what might distinguish them from commonly known sacred dogma. ---
**Author:** ![Another\_Primate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Another\_Primate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Another_Primate)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/43 "2007-01-07T22:10:15Z")
[QUOTE=AHunter3] Totally agree that it is a religion. They have no more room in their congregation for a person who says “I can drink without it being a problem if I can keep from doing a real bender, that’s my goal, to be a social drinker and drink only in moderaton” … [/QUOTE] Oh, to respond to another part of your message, AHunter3, not because I disagree completely with the feeling behind what you’re saying, because you do make sense – but there are particulars I find very different, in my experience with AA meetings: Again, my experience is limited to my southern Oregon small-town community: Hell, yes. We do welcome folks with that opinion: I figure, if they’re coming to our meetings, and consider themselves a normal drinker, well, there must be some more serious problem that they’re either actually experiencing, or that they suspect they might get to that point. And if he does get to that point, at least he knows of a place to go, and people from whom he might learn how to live a happy sober life. He, too, could wake up some morning, thinking, “Holy shit. I’ve crossed a line I never thought I’d cross.” Hey, if he truly can “drink in moderation”, our hats are off to him, so to speak… but why in the world is he wasting his time in our rooms? Hmm. Sidebar: You know, some folks think that sober alcoholics condemn drinkers. Sure, there are some members who do – they’re so calcified in their own experience that they can’t feel safe without thinking that alcohol itself is evil. And there are others of us who can recognize that, while we can’t drink like others, we can still enjoy being around folks who drink, and not feel cheated because we’re not them. I think one of the wonderful things about our AA fellowship is the individualism within. We have hard-liners, we have liberal folks, it’s kind of like the rest of the world… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/44 "2007-01-07T22:22:27Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] There are concepts in AA that are unquestionably believed and revered by followers. That these concepts are generally (I imagine it varies) not thought to have come from the higher power but only to speak truthfully about a higher power is what might distinguish them from commonly known sacred dogma. [/QUOTE] Doesn’t that just boil down to AA being a religious organization if one chooses to define it as such, and not if one _doesn’t_ choose to define it as such? Personally, I figured the “higher power” thing isn’t too much different than army basic training’s concept of breaking the individual down (i.e. removing all the psychological impediments that might prevent the recruit from making a good soldier) and building him back up into, from the army’s perspective, something better. This doesn’t make the army a church or a cult, though I have seen people on this message board who have tried to define it as such. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/45 "2007-01-07T22:27:06Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Doesn’t that just boil down to AA being a religious organization if one chooses to define it as such, and not if one _doesn’t_ choose to define it as such? [/quote] Well, yeah, but so does _everything_. Of course this will depend on your definition of religion, but I cannot see any meaningful distinction between AA and religions. There is the lack of rejection of other faiths, certainly a very unusual thing for a religion to not even imply. ---
**Author:** ![KidKaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/779978/32.png) [@KidKaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidKaos)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/46 "2007-01-07T22:36:38Z")
This is a personal anecdote so please take it only as such. A few years ago my brother was convicted of his second DUI. (No sympathy is asked for nor given by me. I love my brother but truly despise the callous way he has repeatedly driven while impaired) Part of his sentencing was to go to AA meetings. Once there he found that he was pushed into acknowledging a higher power before he could complete the program and thus finish his sentence. Being that both he and I are Antitheists this struck me as odd that the “state” could force any religious belief of any kind on a citizen. Belief in a higher power IS religion. As a punishment it failed completely to accomplish anything with his behavior. In the end real and definite punishment was the only thing that helped when his license was taken away from him for 6 years. And yes he deserved it. In fact in my opinion he and all DUI/DWI drivers deserve far more. But then Im picky that way. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/47 "2007-01-07T22:50:21Z")
[QUOTE=dalej42] Hopefully, the discussion from [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=403051) One can’t seriously argue that AA is a medical treatment for the so-called disease of alcoholism. In the 21st century, we should be rightfully scorned for thinking that the 12 steps have anything to do with treating disease in a medical way. You wouldn’t treat cancer by making amends to those you have harmed. [/QUOTE] I was in a cutting edge study run by Harvard Medical School for 18 months up until about a year ago. Harvard had its own educational classes, group theray, and one on one counseling for those accepted into the study. However, half of the study was strongly encouraging participants to attend AA meetings and then they tracked all this via a computer program. In the educational classes, they emphasized that anything they did was to supplement, not replace, AA (secular alternatives were allowed) and that there was nothing they could do alone that would beat AA’s success rate. I say your statement above is bunk especially since there isn’t a purely medical treatment that can induce long-term remission of alcoholic behavior. The most common medical procedure is clinical detox because alcohol withdrawal can be very uncomfortable and even life threatening. That usually lasts about 2 - 5 days and relapse rates with that alone are abysmal at well over 90% in the first year. All other treatments that incorporate one-on-one therapy or short-term group therapy have abysmal relapse rates as well but it is a daily battle and people tend to give in especially if their life is still screwed up. Antabuse is a medical treatment that causes an alcoholic to have serious allergic reactions when they drink. The way around that is easy. People just stop taking it because they either want to drink or they just don’t want the risk. There are some drugs like naltrexone that reduce the desire to drink but they don’t eliminate it. There isn’t a medical alternative that does what you say. If you want to know why AA is more successful than other things, it dawned on me a while ago. It is a grassroots organization that is absolutely everywhere almost all of the time. There are over 3000 meetings a week in the Boston area alone and you can find them close by morning, noon, and night. You can find them in towns of any size when you are travelling. Most people don’t have any idea because AA doesn’t advertise (it is almost completely decentralised) and they don’t want your money. It is one of the few organizations I know of that is like that. AA isn’t a cult IMHO but it does have some characteristics of one. Members are usually outgoing and interested in seeing you come back and the meetings and the messages tend to be very repetitive. That is its strength. People tend to take comfort in knowing that they can just walk into a meeting anywhere in the world and instantly know what is going on and can participate. The repetitive messages are there to keep a constant reminder of what happens when drinking gets out of control. You can’t lump all AA meetings together. They have different formats and themes and those are denoted in the directory. I never liked Big Book meetings for example because the BB was written in the 1930’s and hasn’t really been updated. Open discussion and speaker meetings can be informative and helpful although I rarely go these days. I don’t believe AA is a religion because there aren’t any leaders and nobody tries to make you believe something of a religious nature. I knew one guy that had his motorcycle as his Higher Power. His idea was that he loved his motorcycle more than anything else and he couldn’t ride it anymore if he got drunk and wrecked it or got a DUI. That seemed fine to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/48 "2007-01-07T23:04:42Z")
One of the central problems with AA is that it is not well grounded in real work on addiction and the brain, but rather on a core concept of sin and salvation. The program may not itself be a religion, but the mirroring of the distinctively Christian pattern is pretty clear. [QUOTE=Common Tater] I think it’s a great program - and statistics are typically meaningless anyway, depending on whose ox is being gored. Their “Big Book” is probably the “Bible” of the organization, written by Bill W., way back in the 1930’s iirc. I would highly recommend reading that for anyone who has curiosity about their history or methods, as it is from the horses mouth, so to speak. [/QUOTE] Speaking of the Big Book, it’s probably relevant to note that it not only roundly rejects non-belief, it literally promises death (via failing to control alcoholism) to those who do not cease to be unbelievers. Here’s some representative quotes: > [@](#): > > “To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster … To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.” (page 44) > > “Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power? Well, that’s exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem… [That] means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics.” (page 45) > > “If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you.” (page 181) > > “But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life – or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. **But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics.** ” (page 44) For a non-religion, AA seems awfully concerned about making sure you are religious. > [@](#): > > “[We] often found ourselves handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice. Many of us have been so touchy that even casual reference to spiritual things make us bristle with antagonism. This sort of thinking had to be abandoned… Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became … open minded on spiritual matters. … In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness.” (pages 47-8) As has been often noted, don’t forget that these sorts of ideas are often being preached at a 1) captive audience (court ordered attendance) and 2) people in some of the weakest, most desperate times of their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/49 "2007-01-07T23:05:28Z")
[QUOTE=KidKaos] Part of his sentencing was to go to AA meetings. Once there he found that he was pushed into acknowledging a higher power before he could complete the program and thus finish his sentence. [/QUOTE] Complete what program? All twelve steps? I have never heard of a court who could know with any certainty what steps the drunk had or had not completed. In my experience, all the court does is require you to attend meetings until the term of your probation is completed. Working the 12 steps is a lifelong process for most AA members, and many never complete them. But some manage to stay sober and discover something about themselves along the way that gives them the strength to go on without drinking. The value of the journey is not reaching the destination, it is what you experience along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/50 "2007-01-07T23:06:17Z")
Also note that most recent comparative studies find that, surprisingly, it doesn’t seem to matter if you use AA, another program, or no program at all. > **[Review Sees No Advantage in 12-Step Programs (Published 2006)](https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25drin.html?ex=1168318800&en=ede71785ffa61e45&ei=5070)** > > A new review suggests that 12-step programs are not superior to any other intervention in reducing alcohol dependence or alcohol-related problems. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/51 "2007-01-07T23:33:00Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] To me, this sentence pretty much means “AA is a religion”. [/QUOTE] So if I say, “If you don’t like comedy with rough language, don’t go see Redd Foxx.” going to see Redd Foxx is a religion? Those who want to regard AA as a religion are free to do so. However, that belief is based on half-truth, anecdotes by individuals such as those who were sent to AA by a court. It might interest you to know that the great majority of AA members regard such conditions of probation as worse than useless. Someone who doesn’t want to be there is of no use to AA since the whole idea is voluntary membership. Of course not all AA members feel this way. You will find evangelists and fundamentalists in every group. And oh yes, no one is forced to go to AA because of a drunk driving conviction. Doing so is a condition of probation and you are not required to accept probation. You can always do the time. The thing about AA is that it is a program of individual recovery. I am there so that others can help me, not for me to help them. And all the others do help. Those who stay sober prove it can be done. Those who cycle in and out remind me of what the bad side is like. > [@According to Pliny](#): > > AA tries not to look religious because they want funding from any number of non-sectarian sources, the govm’t, HMO’s, private endowments. Absolute nonsense. AA does not accept money from any outside source. Might there be an occasional group that does? Sure. You can find people who make mistakes everywhere. But accepting outside finds is against the rules. And again, if you don’t like AA, don’t go. If you want to regard it as a religion, do so. Neither of those harms AA in any way. ---
**Author:** ![KidKaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/779978/32.png) [@KidKaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidKaos)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/52 "2007-01-07T23:34:15Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Complete what program? All twelve steps? I have never heard of a court who could know with any certainty what steps the drunk had or had not completed. In my experience, all the court does is require you to attend meetings until the term of your probation is completed. Working the 12 steps is a lifelong process for most AA members, and many never complete them. But some manage to stay sober and discover something about themselves along the way that gives them the strength to go on without drinking. The value of the journey is not reaching the destination, it is what you experience along the way. [/QUOTE] I just made a quick call to my brother and got the facts from him. In order to be removed from his probation he had to have a letter from the “leader” [his term] of his AA meetings that stated he had complied with ALL 12 steps. However one thing may be different than most meetings. He said that the AA program he had been put in was for people who had been convicted of alcohol related crimes. Mostly DUI/DWI as well as some assaults and drunk and disorderly charges. I have no idea how an AA meeting of this nature may differ from one that is comprised of voluntary members. I personally have never had a need to participate in any such meetings so can not say with any certainty how any operate beyond what was related to me by my brother. I do however believe his recounting of the pressure he was under to “acknowledge” a higher power. Some here have related that the higher power need not be a “God” but could be a motorcycle or other inanimate object. I still see this as deifying that object in some way. Not a thought Im comfortable with when it is a state run government telling you that you have no choice. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/53 "2007-01-07T23:38:30Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] So if I say, “If you don’t like comedy with rough language, don’t go see Redd Foxx.” going to see Redd Foxx is a religion? [/QUOTE] No, it means Redd Foxx is comedy with rough language. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/54 "2007-01-07T23:41:03Z")
[QUOTE=KidKaos] A few years ago my brother was convicted of his second DUI. Part of his sentencing was to go to AA meetings. Once there he found that he was pushed into acknowledging a higher power before he could complete the program and thus finish his sentence. As a punishment it failed completely to accomplish anything with his behavior. In the end real and definite punishment was the only thing that helped when his license was taken away from him for 6 years. [/QUOTE] AA isn’t meant to be punishment, although I suppose to an alcoholic it would certainly seem that way. Hard to say - is your brother an alcoholic? As a practical matter, maybe a little “old time religion” would have done your brother some good, thus avoiding the 6 year suspension of his license.. I think this is a good example of that. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/55 "2007-01-07T23:53:31Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] … don’t forget that these sorts of ideas are often being preached at a 1) captive audience (court ordered attendance) and 2) people in some of the weakest, most desperate times of their lives. [/QUOTE] I’m just not seeing this is as a legitimate problem, whatsoever, to hard-core drunks. How is anyone harmed, esp. one with alcohol abuse, by going to an AA meeting or two? Have you any experience with a true alcoholic? It’s one thing to damage oneself - a sort of slow motion suicide, really - but alcoholics affect everyone around them - and not favorably. AA has been a - dare I say it? real blessing to not only the drunk, but their families. Further, they aren’t espousing any particular flavor of religion, and in any event - if “these sorts of ideas that are often being preached” keep someone out of the gutter and back in amongst the living, how is that a bad thing again? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/56 "2007-01-07T23:54:28Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] No, it means Redd Foxx is comedy with rough language. [/QUOTE] And you are free to choose it or not. AA is a program that includes a “higher power” which I was and am free to choose or reject and still remain a member. I reject it, have never accepted it, other members know this and I am still welcomed at meetings when I choose to go. If you regard AA as a religion fine. Whether or not you believie it AA would then have to be classified as a “cafeteria syle” religion. An array of methods are used by various members and you are absolutely free to choose all or any part, or make up your own. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/57 "2007-01-07T23:56:46Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] And you are free to choose it or not. [/quote] Never said otherwise. > [@](#): > > AA is a program that includes a “higher power” which I was and am free to choose or reject and still remain a member. I reject it, have never accepted it, other members know this and I am still welcomed at meetings when I choose to go. Why did you say “If you don’t like the idea of a “higher power” don’t go to AA.” when you reject the higher power and still go? > [@](#): > > If you regard AA as a religion fine. Whether or not you believie it AA would then have to be classified as a “cafeteria syle” religion. An array of methods are used by various members and you are absolutely free to choose all or any part, or make up your own. Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/58 "2007-01-08T00:01:00Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] Never said otherwise.Why did you say “If you don’t like the idea of a “higher power” don’t go to AA.” when you reject the higher power and still go?Works for me. [/QUOTE] I stated it badly. The intent was to say that if the idea of a higher power is so distasteful as to interfere with recovery then AA is not for you. ---
**Author:** ![KidKaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/779978/32.png) [@KidKaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidKaos)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/59 "2007-01-08T00:07:18Z")
[QUOTE=Common Tater] is your brother an alcoholic? [/QUOTE] Quite possibly. In my opinion I would say yes, but Im not a medical professional so would not want to go further than to present my opinion. [QUOTE=Common Tater] As a practical matter, maybe a little “old time religion” would have done your brother some good, thus avoiding the 6 year suspension of his license.. I think this is a good example of that. [/QUOTE] No I think that when it came down to it (for him) religion had no effect on his behavior. It was a tangible, quantifiable punishment that in fact changed his behavior. Coupled with the threat of future more severe punishment for further offences. But that is a debate for another thread. My point here was only to give a single example of how AA pushed a “religious” belief on my brother in his personal experience. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062/60 "2007-01-08T00:07:53Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] Also note that most recent comparative studies find that, surprisingly, it doesn’t seem to matter if you use AA, another program, or no program at all. [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25drin.html?ex=1168318800&en=ede71785ffa61e45&ei=5070](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25drin.html?ex=1168318800&en=ede71785ffa61e45&ei=5070) [/QUOTE] That isn’t most. It is one study that wasn’t even done in the U.S. (Italy). One study almost always means little in science and the way that studies and statistics work, single studies cannot prove negative results (no differences between groups). Furthermore, some respected American academics from Harvard and Columbia are quoted as saying that they don’t believe the results because there research has already supported some of the AA techniques. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aa-is-a-religious-organization/387062.md?page=4)