# Abbott to Pardon Perry {Pardon has happened} **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 11, 2023, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497 "2023-04-11T10:36:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/1 "2023-04-11T10:36:02Z")
> **[What to know as Gov. Abbott pushes to pardon a man who was just convicted of...](https://www.npr.org/2023/04/10/1168974403/texas-greg-abbott-pardon-daniel-perry)** > > Sgt. Daniel Perry hasn't been sentenced in the killing of Garrett Foster. But the pardons board is already starting to review his case, at Texas Gov. Greg Abbott's request. What I find particularly interesting about this case is the collision of between open carry and stand your ground. Foster was open carrying legally. He never made a threatening move with his firearm. Perry shot him, fearing for his life, legally (according to Abbott) under Texas “Stand Your Ground”. Now, the DA disagrees, and so did the jury, but how can you have it both ways? You can open carry but if somebody feels threatened by your open carry they can shoot you? So dumb. Of course, the fact is that this has nothing to do with Stand Your Ground or open carry in reality. This is because the victim was a BLM protestor. “Murder is a-ok in Texas if it is a BLM protestor”, say pro-life advocate governor Greg Abbott. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/2 "2023-04-11T11:13:06Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > This is because the victim was a BLM protestor. “Murder is a-ok in Texas if it is a BLM protestor” I’m honestly surprised that stand your ground laws haven’t been more abused. But yeah, this seems an obvious conflict. Would there be a pardon if the person who was shot was a Proud Boy who was open carrying? ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/3 "2023-04-11T11:19:21Z")
I know the question is rhetorical, but of course, not a chance. Abbott would be pushing for the death penalty (as a pro-life governor no less). ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/4 "2023-04-11T11:36:59Z")
I mean, the real answer is that if the person with the gun looks “dangerous”, you can shoot them. But if they are clearly “law-abiding”, any act of aggression is a crime. Also, if they are “clearly law-abiding”, any insecurity about the fact that they are armed is being a snowflake wuss. How to tell them apart is so self-evident that we don’t need to say it out loud. Be we all know it, right? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/5 "2023-04-11T13:41:20Z")
ISTM, upon reading a number of articles about the case, that the victim would have been justified in shooting the driver, Parry, for driving his car into the crowd. But, hey, what do I know? I’m not sitting in the governor’s chair. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/6 "2023-04-11T13:47:56Z")
No to derail the thread, but the problem with open carry - especially if we’re not talking about someone with a holstered pistol, but openly _toting_ an AK-47 - is that there’s literally maybe only 1 second between “legal and permissible open carry” and “opening fire to kill you.” As such, any self-defense action is a hair-trigger matter. But I agree, Abbott is pardoning for political purposes. He sure wouldn’t be pardoning if the race or politics were the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/7 "2023-04-11T13:49:04Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > He never made a threatening move with his firearm. This is disputed. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/8 "2023-04-11T13:55:39Z")
I’m not aware of anybody who has disputed this except Parry, and he’s not exactly reliable. So far as I’ve seen the witnesses say he did not raise his gun. The closest I’ve seen is a police officer warning him that the way he was carrying it was “dangerous” and he could have raised the weapon quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/9 "2023-04-11T14:24:20Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > You can open carry but if somebody feels threatened by your open carry they can shoot you? So dumb. “An armed society is a polite society.” [for certain values of “polite”] > [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > Of course, the fact is that this has nothing to do with Stand Your Ground or open carry in reality. This is because the victim was a BLM protestor. “Murder is a-ok in Texas if it is a BLM protestor”, say pro-life advocate governor Greg Abbott. Protestors are really subhumans anyway, unless they are threatening to abduct Gretchen Whitmer or trying to prevent certification of a presidential election that didn’t go their way; then they are misunderstood ‘heroes’ and protectors of freedom. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/10 "2023-04-11T14:36:01Z")
[I do not live in Texas. I was not born in Texas. I did live in Texas for 35 years, age 25 to 60, and learned much about Texas politics. I watched the state go from solid Democrat to solid Republican. It is starting to swing back, despite the Republican’s desperate attempts to hold onto power. My opinions of Texas politics are not facts, so I may be wrong in some of the following, but this is how I see it.] > [@Monty](#): > > ISTM, upon reading a number of articles about the case, that the victim would have been justified in shooting the driver, Parry, for driving his car into the crowd. But, hey, what do I know? I’m not sitting in the governor’s chair. I didn’t follow the trial, but I suspect this was brought out at trial. That is, the self-defense gambit does not work if the killer was also the instigator. I suspect this is why the killer was found guilty, along with his social media posts. I think the defense’s story was that the killer did not “drive into the crowd,” but, rather, the crowd engulfed the car. Regardless, I don’t think the jury believed it. I also believe that Texas is similar to Georgia in that the Governor cannot pardon anyone without approval of the Board of Pardons and Paroles. This does make it a bit messier (or, and easy out for Abbott). While the Governor can recommend the Board consider a Pardon, there has to be justification. A judge and jury have already examined the law and facts in the case and decided, unanimously, that the killer was guilty. That makes it difficult. Sure, the Board members are appointed by the Governor, but I think there may be a few problems if they just rubber-stamp whatever the Governor asks. Texas’ Governor is really very limited in his authority by the Texas constitution. This was done intentionally, in response to the capret-bagging actions during reconstruction. It will be interesting to see how this ends. The easiest is that the Board of Pardons and Paroles denies the Governor’s request due to lack of justification. This way, Abbott can say that he tired while the Board members can say their hands are tied by the [Rules](https://www.tdcj.texas.gov/bpp/rules/2023-0213_Rules.pdf), which can only be changed by Constitutional amendment. At least, that is the way I understand it. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/11 "2023-04-11T14:36:52Z")
Thanks for this post. I appreciate your insight. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/12 "2023-04-11T19:09:22Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > This is because the victim was a BLM protestor. “Murder is a-ok in Texas if it is a BLM protestor”, say pro-life advocate governor Greg Abbott. You left out an important part. Perry is a white soldier who shot a BLM protestor. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/13 "2023-04-11T19:15:09Z")
> [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > I didn’t follow the trial, but I suspect this was brought out at trial. That is, the self-defense gambit does not work if the killer was also the instigator. I suspect this is why the killer was found guilty, along with his social media posts. I’ve listened to analysis of this case on the radio, and the main reason why “stand your ground” didn’t apply was because Parry was in a vehicle and Foster was on foot. Parry could have driven away pretty easily and chose not to. The idea behind “stand your ground” is that you can defend yourself if you can’t get away. It’s hard to argue that a driver’s only defense against a guy on foot is to shoot the person. > [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > Texas’ Governor is really very limited in his authority by the Texas constitution. This was done intentionally, in response to the capret-bagging actions during reconstruction. It will be interesting to see how this ends. The easiest is that the Board of Pardons and Paroles denies the Governor’s request due to lack of justification. As analysts have pointed out, Abbott appoints each member of that board and can fire them at will. So while it’s technically up to them, he has a lot of power over them. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/14 "2023-04-11T19:22:16Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > As analysts have pointed out, Abbott appoints each member of that board and can fire them at will. So while it’s technically up to them, he has a lot of power over them. But once they make a recommendation, can he pull a “Saturday Night Massacre” to get them to change it? Or is the original recommendation locked in? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/15 "2023-04-11T19:39:34Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Parry could have driven away pretty easily and chose not to. Are there pictures/videos to confirm this? Or was the vehicle surrounded by protesters? ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/16 "2023-04-11T19:50:54Z")
I haven’t seen any video, but I have seen in news reports on the trial that four videos were presented as evidence. I believe mainly by the prosecution to refute that he was swarmed. The one picture I’ve seen seems to show that he could have moved forward. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/17 "2023-04-11T20:00:21Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Or was the vehicle surrounded by protesters? Perry _claimed_ that he was surrounded by protestors. > **[What we know: Daniel Perry murder conviction, prison sentence, Abbott's...](https://www.statesman.com/story/news/local/2023/04/10/get-up-to-date-on-the-daniel-perry-murder-conviction-pardon-talk/70096901007/)** > > Get up to date on Daniel Perry's murder conviction in 2020 protest shooting and talk of a pardon by Gov. Greg Abbott. > He told police in a videotaped interview after the shooting that he was texting a woman when he turned toward the marchers on Congress Avenue. When he looked up, he said, he was surrounded by protestors hitting his car and banging objects on it. Perry said Foster wanted to talk to him, so he rolled down his window. Foster mumbled something at him and then raised his weapon, Perry said. “That’s when I got my weapon and pulled the trigger as fast as I could, and then drove away and called 911,” Perry said. I mean, his excuse was that he didn’t intentionally drive into the protestors, that he was texting while driving so didn’t see them. (Which would be a major crime in my state on its own, I don’t know what Texas law is regarding that.) The prosecution insisted that he did it on purpose, citing social media posts he’d made beforehand where he claimed he wanted to shoot protestors. Also, the prosecution claims he sped up while approaching the protestors, the defense claimed that he slowed down. He also ran a red light while driving into them, which nobody seems to dispute, though again Perry claims it was because he was texting at the time. (Again, why is that a defense?!) He had no problem driving away after he shot Foster, though you could speculate people might have scattered after the gunfire. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Or is the original recommendation locked in? Here is a CNN story with some insight: > **[What we know about the Daniel Perry case and what happens next after Gov....](https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/11/us/daniel-perry-greg-abbott-pardon-case-explained/index.html)** > > As the Texas pardons board weighs a request from the governor for an expedited review of the conviction of an Army sergeant who fatally shot a protester at a Black Lives Matter rally, an attorney for the victim’s family is calling for the full legal... > In 2021, the board, citing procedural errors, withdrew George Floyd’s Clemency recommendation after it previously voted unanimously to recommend a full posthumous pardon of Floyd for a 2004 drug conviction, according to hearing minutes provided by the board to CNN. That suggest to me that they can change it after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/18 "2023-04-11T20:49:42Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > The idea behind “stand your ground” is that you can defend yourself if you can’t get away. It’s hard to argue that a driver’s only defense against a guy on foot is to shoot the person. I think this is wrong that that is precisely the situation that the stand your ground law was made for. As I understood it you have always had the ability to defend yourself with deadly force if you had no other option, but that that if you were able to retreat you had the obligation to do so before using deadly force. This was changed by these laws so that now you could “stand your ground” and not retreat even if option was available. > **[Stand-your-ground law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law)** > > A stand-your-ground law, sometimes called a "line in the sand" or "no duty to retreat" law, provides that people may use deadly force when they reasonably believe it to be necessary to defend against certain violent crimes (right of self-defense). Under such a law, people have no duty to retreat before using deadly force in self-defense, so long as they are in a place where they are lawfully present. The exact details vary by jurisdiction. > The alternative to stand your ground is "duty to retrea... ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/19 "2023-04-11T20:53:09Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > openly _toting_ an AK-47 Well there’s the problem right there. He was toting a librah commie gun. If he was a real American he’d have been toting an AR-15 like all the people on the ‘right’ side of BLM [protests](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/06/missouri-couple-who-pointed-guns-at-blm-protesters-seek-return-of-firearms) [did](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53934109). ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497/20 "2023-04-11T20:59:03Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I think this is wrong that that is precisely the situation that the stand your ground law was made for. I think you’re correct, and I think that I was remembering the reason why **self-defense** was rejected in this case. Not “stand your ground”. Because it was argued that Perry could have easily retreated. Of course, the problem with arguing stand your ground in this case is that it isn’t lawful to run a red light into a crowd of pedestrians. So Perry (and his vehicle) did not have a legal right to be there. That might be a reason why that particular defense didn’t work (or maybe wasn’t even attempted), but I can’t say for certain. I tried finding that info but couldn’t. On another note, I think this is a new development in this case: > **[Daniel Perry’s attorney files motion for new trial, court documents say](https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/daniel-perrys-attorney-files-motion-for-new-trial-court-documents-say/)** > > After a jury found Army Sergeant Daniel Perry guilty of murder in court last week, court documents reveal he filed a motion for a new trial Tuesday. Perry shot and killed Black Lives Matter protest… What a mess. He was found guilty but Abbott is arguing for a pardon before sentencing has even happened, and before that even happens, Perry’s attorney is insisting there needs to be a new trial. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abbott-to-pardon-perry-pardon-has-happened/982497.md?page=2)