# Abe Lincoln: Overhyped? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2000, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789 "2000-12-30T13:05:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/21 "2001-01-02T07:41:00Z")
Lincoln’s greatest achievement was his still-unanswered question: “Vladimir Lenin - Overhyped?” ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/22 "2001-01-02T15:08:02Z")
lincoln was a white supreacist and was using the emancipation as a politico/military maneuver. there is a book: FORCED INTO GLORY about this but i haven’t read in. not that interested. there are a lot of distorted heroes. did you know edison advocated the use of the electric chair, for self serving reasons. henry ford was given germany’s highest medal for a non-citizen by adolf hitler. wonder why? Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/23 "2001-01-02T15:20:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dal\_timgar \* > \*\*lincoln was a white supreacist and was using the emancipation as a politico/military maneuver. > > there is a book: FORCED INTO GLORY about this but i haven’t read in. not that interested. > > there are a lot of distorted heroes. did you know edison advocated the use of the electric chair, for self serving reasons. henry ford was given germany’s highest medal for a non-citizen by adolf hitler. wonder why? > > Dal Timgar \*\* Well, in Ford’s case, it’s because he was a rabid anti-Semite, and spent a bunch of money translating and publishing the Protocols. As for Lincoln, calling him a “white supreacist” \ is kind of misleading. Lincoln did believe that whites were superior to blacks, but that was a pretty common viewpoint in 19th century America. I don’t know if you would find many Americans who didn’t believe that. He did seem to support emancipation, however, and he seems to have supported that long before his presidency. Frederick Douglass said of Lincoln, “He was the first white man who, in his presence, I was not reminded I was a Negro.” Did the Proclamation have political purposes? Of course, but I also get the idea that Lincoln thought it was the right thing to do. If it was a simple political decision, it backfired. The Republicans were hit hard in the 1862 elections. ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/24 "2001-01-03T02:38:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by TXLonghorn \* > > Lincoln was pretty shrewd in restricting the EP to slaves in areas over which he had no control (“within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States”). There were still plenty of slaves held in areas that remained loyal to the Union, and freeing them by executive order (without just compensation) would have been illegal, and divisive WRT the remaining loyal states. > > This is a common misconception. The reason he restricted it to areas under rebellion was not to make it a moot point. The reason was because the federal government had no authority over the Union States, and could not tell them to free the slaves. The Confederate States, however, **were** under federal authority, and therefore the federal government had the authority to free the slaves there. It’s similar to how Congress can pass municipal regulations applying to Washington DC, but not to any other city. Furthermore, since any rebel territory under control of the Union would be held by the military, and Lincoln was the Commander in Chief of the military, he had the right to order the military to enforce his proclamation in any territory they conquered. \*\* So? Still being under Federal authority (although several hundred thousand Confederate troops disagreed?), this invalidated the Fifth Amendment? (I know, I know… martial law & all that). Here in Texas, we have a holiday called “Juneteenth.” It commemorates the day (June 19(?), 1865), when slaves in Texas found out that Lincoln “freed” them 2 1/2 years before. I guess all of those loyal Union soldiers weren’t too anxious to free all of the slaves in a non-combat zone. Just curious: was the general sentiment among the numerous slaves in the loyal states “WTF? What about us?” They had to wait until the ratification of the 13th Amendment in Dec. 1865. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/25 "2001-01-03T03:22:05Z")
Actually, the fifth amendment should prohibit wars in general. It’s not like enemy soldiers are given due process before being shot. I’m not sure how legal scholars have rationalized that one. ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/26 "2001-01-03T17:39:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Here in Texas, we have a holiday called “Juneteenth.” It commemorates the day (June 19(?), 1865), when slaves in Texas found out that Lincoln “freed” them 2 1/2 years before. I guess all of those loyal Union soldiers weren’t too anxious to free all of the slaves in a non-combat zone. What is your point? Union troops did not occupy Texas until June 1865. It was the last Confederate area to surrender. How could the union soldiers have freed Texan slaves any sooner? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/27 "2001-01-03T17:48:07Z")
Well, technically, the slaves were freed with the proclamation. The rebels were just holding them illegally. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/28 "2001-01-03T18:11:46Z")
I wonder whether anyone other than Lincoln would have been able to keep the United States from splitting in two (in the long run). It’s difficult to judge what the course of events would have been with a different leader in place. > [@](#): > > Lincoln was pretty shrewd in restricting the EP to slaves in areas over which he had no control (“within any > State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States”). There were still plenty of slaves held in areas that remained loyal to the Union, and freeing them by executive order (without just compensation) would have been illegal, and divisive WRT the remaining loyal states. Were there really “plenty of slaves” in loyal states? The northern states had already outlawed slavery well before the Civil War. Apart from his politics, one reason that Lincoln is still so well-regarded is this little tidbit, which for my money, is one of the best pieces of political oratory ever: > [@](#): > > Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us–that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion–that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/29 "2001-01-03T19:44:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lenin \* > \*\*I don’t believe I ever said that it was better for the other presidents to keep slavery going. It’s quite troubling to see you put words in my mouth. > > What I did say, however, is that any man in Lincoln’s place would have done the same thing\*\* Fifteen men HAD been in Lincoln’s place and had not done the same thing. I don’t recall James Buchanan, Franklin Pierce, or Millard Fillmore being emancipators. As my country happily careens towards destruction thanks to a succession of Prime Ministers who don’t have the balls to stand up and say “this nation is indivisible,” I look at Lincoln and realize the value of having as leader a man who has the guts to stand and say “you cannot split up our country, and we’ll fight if that’s what it takes.” ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/30 "2001-01-03T20:57:25Z")
“Any People anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better… Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movement.” Abraham Lincoln, House of Representatives, Jan 12, 1848; in a speech comenting on the war with Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/31 "2001-01-03T21:37:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zigaretten \* > \*\* > “Any People anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better… Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movement.” > > Abraham Lincoln, House of Representatives, Jan 12, 1848; in a speech comenting on the war with Mexico. \*\* I’d have to see the context of this quote, but taking it at face value, his views changed. That happens. ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/32 "2001-01-03T23:18:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JeffB \* > **Were there really “plenty of slaves” in loyal states? The northern states had already outlawed slavery well before the Civil War.** Well, maybe the NORTHERN states, but there were 4 loyal “border” states that retained slavery: Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware. For the record, Lincoln didn’t even free the slaves in areas of Confederate states already under Union control (that’s why 12 parishes of Louisiana, including the city of New Orleans, were exempted). The EP was a shrewd military act, aimed at ruining the economy of areas which came under Union control (however temporarily) by freeing slaves (then an essential part of the economy). This would make it impossible for these areas to support the CSA military. Militarily, the modern equivalent would be to destroy farm equipment in conquered areas before moving on (or out). I’m not saying this was evil (it certainly wasn’t), but if Lincoln was an abolitionist, it was disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/33 "2001-01-03T23:56:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > Actually, the fifth amendment should prohibit wars in general. It’s not like enemy soldiers are given due process before being shot. I’m not sure how legal scholars have rationalized that one. Enemy soldiers aren’t American citizens, and aren’t accorded American rights, privileges, and immunities. Does this help? ---
**Author:** ![richman2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@richman2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richman2)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/34 "2001-01-03T23:58:53Z")
Lincoln is hyped for a single reason: He helped form the Republican Party, and became their mascot and rallying point. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/35 "2001-01-04T00:25:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Any People anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better… The key words there, of course, are “having the power.” Which the South didn’t, thank God. > [@](#): > > Lincoln is hyped for a single reason: He helped form the Republican Party, and became their mascot and rallying point. Well, that’s why _I_ hype him and tell all those darned democrats they have no right to admire him, but they refuse to agree, the pikers. :rolleyes: Lincoln is admired, IMO, because he upheld the Union and safeguarded it through civil war. I take leave to doubt that just anyone could have done it, or done it as well. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789/36 "2001-01-04T03:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Any People anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better… > > The key words there, of course, are “having the power.” Which the South didn’t, thank God. \*\* There’s a wonderful passage in Clavell’s “Shogun” where Blackthorne (the hero) is at one of his first audiences with Lord Toronaga, who is asking him about the war the Dutch are fighting against the Spanish. Toronaga in unimpressed with the Dutch rebelling against their masters, and asks Blackthorne what justification there could possibly be for such dishonourable behaviour. Blackthorne replies that there is one justification: “If you win.” Toronaga is quite satisfied with the response. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincoln-overhyped/47789.md?page=1)