# Abe Lincoln's party? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 21, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422 "2006-07-21T00:55:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/1 "2006-07-21T00:55:23Z")
I don’t think so. My knowledge of history is pretty weak, but I don’t think Abe’s republican party bears much resemblance to George Bush’s. I just heard him claim, in a speech tonight, to be of Lincoln’s party. He was speaking to a largely black audience. Hmmm. Fat chance? Or true. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/2 "2006-07-21T01:15:26Z")
Yes, Lincoln was a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/3 "2006-07-21T01:25:30Z")
It was true technically. He could have referred to the Democrats as once being the party of segregation and racism and he would have been roughly correct as well. Political parties in the U.S. are like sports teams. There is an unbroken lineage but things can change drastically over time. A Red Sox player today could say that he was on the same team as Babe Ruth but it doesn’t mean much. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/4 "2006-07-21T01:43:06Z")
Lincoln believed blacks were inferior, and should never have the rights of white people\*. Maybe that’s what Bush meant? (I kid. I have mucho problems with Bush, but I don’t recall any reasons to think he’s bigoted against blacks.) \*[http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate4.htm](http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate4.htm) > [@](#): > > Lincoln: I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/5 "2006-07-21T01:47:47Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Lincoln believed blacks were inferior, and should never have the rights of white people\*. Well, do you think he would have had any chance of getting elected if he had said, “I think blacks should vote, hold office, and marry your daughters”? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/6 "2006-07-21T02:05:53Z")
All political parties change over time; I seriously doubt the Conservative Party in the UK has the same positions that it did when Disraeli was it’s head. Blacks in the US were strongly Republican in the 19th Century – since Lincoln freed the slaves, and the Democratic Party was entrenched as the slaveholders’ party in the South, how could they not? Things changed as the Democrats under FDR began to become the party of the northern urban areas where Blacks were moving. Then, when the Democrats started pushing for Civil Rights (starting in 1948), most Black voters switched. They are one of the Democrats’ most dependable voting bloc – so much so that Bush didn’t think it was worth appearing at the NAACP convention the past few years. It is typical Republican rhetoric to make the connection with Lincoln to Black audiences, but the audiences don’t buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/7 "2006-07-21T02:12:51Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Well, do you think he would have had any chance of getting elected if he had said, “I think blacks should vote, hold office, and marry your daughters”? Are you suggesting he only said those things to get elected, and did not really believe in white superiority? If so, what makes you think he did not actually feel that way? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/8 "2006-07-21T03:22:13Z")
His freeing of Black people from slavery? Just guessing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/9 "2006-07-21T03:38:48Z")
It would have been cool if one of the audience members had said, “Thanks for the emancipation and don’t think we don’t appreciate it. But what have you done for us in the last 143 years?” ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/10 "2006-07-21T11:48:30Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > His freeing of Black people from slavery? Just guessing. I think it’s more likely to say that Lincoln opposed slavery but considered the Union more important that that. All quotes from Lincoln: > [@](#): > > “My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause.” The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, “Letter to Horace Greeley” (August 22, 1862), p. 388. > [@](#): > > “I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.” > –From the August 22, 1862 Letter to Horace Greeley > [@](#): > > “I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. And yet I have never understood that the Presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to act officially upon this judgment and feeling.” > –From the April 4, 1864 Letter to Albert Hodges > [@](#): > > “You know I dislike slavery; and you fully admit the abstract wrong of it.” > –From the August 24, 1855 Letter to Joshua Speed ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/11 "2006-07-21T11:58:48Z")
I think Jonathan nailed it pretty well. I do not doubt that he was utterly convinced that slavery was wrong, but he was more convinced that the Union must be preserved. I think we err when we judge 19th century men by 21st century values. By today’s terms, his notions of racial inequality seem quite outrageous. But for his time, he may have been on the liberal side of the scale. As offered before, declarations of complete racial equality would have been an electoral death sentence. That he represented the Republican Party is mere happenstance. Both parties have evolved over time to an extent that neither modern party resembles their 19th century namesake in anything but name. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/12 "2006-07-21T12:46:31Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > His freeing of Black people from slavery? Just guessing. There’s a good deal of room between feeling people shouldn’t be slaves and feeling they are your equals. Lincoln stated pretty clearly that he was in that middle ground. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/13 "2006-07-21T14:40:17Z")
I heard that guy could throw one bitchin’ kegger. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/14 "2006-07-21T15:03:03Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Are you suggesting he only said those things to get elected, and did not really believe in white superiority? If so, what makes you think he did not actually feel that way? Well, no, he probably did believe that whites as a group were superior to blacks as a group. But my point is, even if he didn’t, he would have to say he did. In that race, Douglas and the Democrats were painting the Republicans as the party of miscegeneration. He’s rebutting those charges, as you can see from the rest of the paragraph. > [@](#): > > I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied every thing. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men. I recollect of but one distinguished instance that I ever heard of so frequently as to be entirely satisfied of its correctness-and that is the case of Judge Douglas’s old friend Col. Richard M. Johnson. [Laughter.] I will also add to the remarks I have made (for I am not going to enter at large upon this subject,) that I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, [laughter] but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, [roars of laughter] I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes. [Continued laughter and applause.] I will add one further word, which is this: that I do not understand that there is any place where an alteration of the social and political relations of the negro and the white man can be made except in the State Legislature-not in the Congress of the United States-and as I do not really apprehend the approach of any such thing myself, and as Judge Douglas seems to be in constant horror that some such danger is rapidly approaching, I propose as the best means to prevent it that the Judge be kept at home and placed in the State Legislature to fight the measure. [Uproarious laughter and applause.] ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/15 "2006-07-21T15:16:10Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > That he represented the Republican Party is mere happenstance. Both parties have evolved over time to an extent that neither modern party resembles their 19th century namesake in anything but name. Of course Lincoln was deliberately a Republican, having been one of the earliest Republicans. The Republicans were the anti-slavery party, and abolition was the _cause celebré_ among the emerging class of industrialists and their wives and children. The Republicans were in bed with big business from the beginning. I would say that in terms of labor policy, Bush can claim to represent the party of Lincoln without blushing. ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/16 "2006-07-21T16:02:30Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > His freeing of Black people from slavery? Just guessing. Since this is IMHO I will add that as I recall from some history reading that England was making preparations to recognize the CSA as a sovereign nation and establish trade with the South. this would mean the much-need cannons, shot, powder, and supplies would be available to the Confederacy. Is in tun would mean ships of the Royal Navy challenging the Union blockade. The North would have to expand the war to include Great Britain or face a well equipped South. It was at this time that Lincoln put forth the Emancipation Proclamation to cast the South as the “Evil” side of the conflict in the eyes of the world and discourage this official recognition. It was years ago that I read this and I’m not sure which text it was in but certainly seems like a reasonable tactic from all perspectives. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/17 "2006-07-21T16:18:02Z")
Well, between RIce and Powell, Bush’s administration has/had more African-Americans in visible positions of power than any others I can think of. For me, the real telling thing is the way he dropped the “good ol’ boy cowboy” manner of speaking that he uses when he speaks to his typical crowd. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/18 "2006-07-21T16:18:11Z")
The Second Confiscation Act provided for the liberation of all slaves, as a penalty for anyone participating or assisting the rebellion. That was in early 1862. The Emancipation Proclamation basically took it one step further. Really, what kepy Great Britain out the Civil War was their basic reticence to do so, the South’s inability to win a major offensive battle, and the Union’s capture of the Mississippi River, which pretty much doomed the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/19 "2006-07-21T16:34:36Z")
The Rebublican party was traditionally in favor of stronger central government and the Democrats were more supportive of states’ rights. Reconstruction left a bitter taste in the mouths of southern whites, so they became strongly Democratic. The phrase “yellow dog democrat” came from the fact that people would vote for a yellow dog as long as it was a democrat. For years there was an uneasy marriage between sothern conservative democrats who opposed civil rights legislation and northern democrats who were pro-labor and anti-big business. Nixon’s Southern Strategy changed all that. They went after the southern conservatives who were pissed off by Johnson’s civil rights legislation, “activist” courts who decided that black people had rights to equal education, etc. The Republicans exploited this discontent in a truly shameful manner. For years many souther conservatives stayed registered as democrats but voted republican. These days, the issues are gay marriage, guns, flag burning, etc., but the tactics are the same: rile up the poor folks and then pass legislation favoring the rich. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422/20 "2006-07-21T16:48:07Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Lincoln believed blacks were inferior If I had lived in the 19th century, and had limited exposure to blacks, most of whom had been deliberately kept inferior (enslaved, denied education and opportunity, etc.), I might well have believed blacks were inferior, too. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abe-lincolns-party/365422.md?page=2)