# Abolish student loans **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091 "2015-03-16T02:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/61 "2015-03-17T05:04:17Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Maybe. Some might be skeptical as to whether a women’s studies degree helps anyone do that. It’s certainly not necessary. Oppression of women occurs mainly in places such as Saudi Arabia and Nigeria. I can’t recall ever encountering an academic feminist focused on assisting women in those places, though it may happen. Instead I hear more about women on campus who can spot a “microagression” anywhere or who are fighting the “rape culture”. So, in other words, you are critical of the rape culture debate and you also think women’s studies is an unproductive degree? ---
**Author:** ![Syne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Syne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syne)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/62 "2015-03-17T05:18:13Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > There are a lot of 18 year olds that don’t have good money sense that shouldn’t be getting loans. Maybe not, but I think we all agree that they should be getting an education. How exactly do we reconcile this? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/63 "2015-03-17T12:00:18Z")
We do cap student loans - the federal ones. (Private loans I think should be between parties to arrange). The most you can borrow as an independent student for your undergrad education is $57,500. Which is a lot of money, but not a LOT of money. (And that’s if your a independent student, dependent students can only get $31k.) It seems like most parents are undereducated about the cost of education - and that doesn’t help ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/64 "2015-03-17T12:43:20Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Oppression of women occurs mainly in places such as Saudi Arabia and Nigeria. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/65 "2015-03-17T12:52:17Z")
So, I was watching John Oliver on student debt - he said \>30% of the $1 trillion debt is held by the for-profits, which only have 12% of the enrollment, is that accurate? He also said something like 25+% of the budget is spent on marketing vs 10% on teaching staff (I presume, from context, he meant of the for-profits, specifically) Does that also seem accurate? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/66 "2015-03-17T13:12:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So, I was watching John Oliver on student debt - he said \>30% of the $1 trillion debt is held by the for-profits, which only have 12% of the enrollment, is that accurate? > > He also said something like 25+% of the budget is spent on marketing vs 10% on teaching staff (I presume, from context, he meant of the for-profits, specifically) Does that also seem accurate? This sounds plausible. Most for-profits are basically a scam for transferring student loan funds in to their bank accounts, preying on non-college savvy students and intense marketing. They are protected by powerful political allies who preach the value of “privatization” while lining their pockets with taxpayer money. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/67 "2015-03-17T13:44:09Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Well here’s an [article](http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/comparing-tax-rates-in-the-us-and-norway.html) that lays out the difference in tax rates between Norway and the U.S. It’s not that college doesn’t cost money in Norway, it’s that college doesn’t cost money for the students. If we could get the rich (and by rich Norway is referring to people who make over $124,000 per year) to pay income tax of 43.9%, we might be able to offer “free” college too. Norway has about 6,900 million barrels of proven oil reserves in a country with a population of only 5.1 million. This gives a ratio of about 1,352 barrels / person. The US, on the other hand, has about 30,500 million barrels of proven oil reserves in a country with a population of 320 million. This gives a ratio of about 95 barrels / person. In order for the US to be as oil-rich as Norway on a per-person basis, it would need to have about 432,941 million barrels of proven reserves, slightly less than a third of the entire world’s supply. The 26th most profitable company in the world is Statoil, the Norwegian oil & gas company, which is 67% owned by the Norwegian government. So, if the US had a third of the world’s oil and then nationalized the asset, formed one of the largest companies in the world and then sold that oil and then kept the profits as part of the governemnt revenues and used that to pay for college, that would be super easy. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/68 "2015-03-17T14:18:48Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > If student loans are ruining your life, that’s nobody’s fault but your own. There are 7 repayment plans, including very generous income-based plans. I have ridiculous, crazy, six figure loans and my payments are extremely reasonable. I’ve had to use deferrals and forbearance at times (as a Peace Corps volunteer) and it was a painless process. They really do have a lot of ways to work with you to make sure you can pay something. > > Yes, it’s not ideal to have massive debt. But people perpetuating the scare tactics are either massively misinformed or have some other agenda. That’s great if you can get a good job because you picked a good college program. If you’re stuck working for minimum wage because you chose theater, good luck telling the bill collectors on the phone to stop harassing your boss to garnish your wages, even though they’re not supposed to be able to do that when you work part time for MW. Good luck having an understanding enough boss not to fire you the first, second, third, or fourth time that happens. Good luck getting a cell phone, car, apartment or utilities when your credit says you’re in default on a $60k loan. “Deferred”, okay. Try explaining the difference to the guy who turns on your water. Then try getting a decent job without any of those things, and with the threat of bill collectors harassing your boss the second they find out you’re employed. These aren’t scare tactics. It’s reality for people I personally know, and probably thousands of others across the country. The problem isn’t that young professionals have more debt than they used to. The problem is that we’re making homeless people out of middle class college graduates. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/69 "2015-03-17T14:41:44Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > That’s great if you can get a good job because you picked a good college program. If you’re stuck working for minimum wage because you chose theater, good luck telling the bill collectors on the phone to stop harassing your boss to garnish your wages, even though they’re not supposed to be able to do that when you work part time for MW. Good luck having an understanding enough boss not to fire you the first, second, third, or fourth time that happens. > > Good luck getting a cell phone, car, apartment or utilities when your credit says you’re in default on a $60k loan. “Deferred”, okay. Try explaining the difference to the guy who turns on your water. > > Then try getting a decent job without any of those things, and with the threat of bill collectors harassing your boss the second they find out you’re employed. > > These aren’t scare tactics. It’s reality for people I personally know, and probably thousands of others across the country. The problem isn’t that young professionals have more debt than they used to. The problem is that we’re making homeless people out of middle class college graduates. Then the real people that you know should go in their loan provider’s website and sign up for income based repayment. It takes about 10 minutes and requires faxing a single form once a year. They will take your income, subtract 150% of the poverty line, and then charge 10 or 15 percent of that, depending on when you became a borrower. If you are making minimum wage, that probably works out to nothing or a token payment. In 25 years (or 10 years if you work for government or nonprofits) the loan will be dismissed. Of course if you just don’t pay the loans, rather than choosing from on of the 7 repayment plans, they will start using collection agencies and your credit will suffer, which I am guessing is what happened to your friends. Why aren’t your friends using the many real, actual, repayment methods available to them? I don’t think lenders look at deferred student loans in the same way as, say, a late credit payment. People routinely defer loans when they are in grad school. I had no problem getting a phone, apartment, utilities, etc. Again, it sounds to me like your friends are defaulting, which is bonehead stupid and not at all necessary. The loan services know that these loans cannot be discharged through bankruptcy, so they have no reason to get aggressive on people who indicate they intend to pay and make a good faith effort to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/70 "2015-03-17T16:59:38Z")
I think we need to distinguish between two types of students. The first type gets a degree in order to get a job in order to make enough money to do the type of stuff they want to do after the job. The second have a passion for something learning related. The first are probably fine in a community college, assuming they can get it together to survive two more years of effective high school without a lot of peer pressure. It is wrong for the second set. They will find classes to take, things to do, and connections to make that aren’t available at a community college. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/71 "2015-03-17T17:20:50Z")
Community college is, counterintuitively, associated with poorer prospects for high-achieving low-income college students. These students often benefit from being immersed in an academic environment, and away from family and peers that may be a negative influence on their studies. It’s hard to finish community college when you are pressured by your family to provide income and childcare for your siblings, and when your friends are seemingly getting ahead working and partying without the pressures of studying. It’s also disappointing when they expect a rigorous academic environment where they will finally be challenged, and instead they get grade 13. In general, high-achieving low-income students benefit from going to the most rigorous university they can get admitted to. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/72 "2015-03-17T18:16:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So, in other words, you are critical of the rape culture debate and you also think women’s studies is an unproductive degree? Yes, I think exactly those things. Further, I think there are a lot of courses offered at many campuses that are mostly useless, and a lot of academic work is utter nonsense. It’s not just women’s studies. That was just the first obvious example that popped into my head while I was writing my first post. Also, almost every day I can read about someone in the academic world doing something stupid that seems designed to alienate the public. Just a few days ago, a student group at UC Irvine passed a resolution demanding that the American flag be removed from a particular building, citing reasons such as “The American flag has been flown in instances of colonialism and imperialism” and “freedom of speech, in a space that aims to be as inclusive as possible, can be interpreted as hate speech”. That group of students was overruled by a higher group of the student council, who voted that the flag could stay. But it’s not over yet. A thousands students and dozens of professors have [launched](http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415495/seeking-meaning-life-uc-student-leaders-remove-american-flag-dennis-prager) a petition demanding that the original ban on the flag be enforced. So the word from these folks at UC Irvine amounts to a huge middle finger directed at the American people. Yet at the same time, they want those same American taxpayers to send them more and more money. The more stupid things that campus groups do, the more it will alienate the voters, and the less inclined those voters will feel towards sending more money to the universities. This is obvious. Only an academic at a prestigious university could possibly fail to see it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/73 "2015-03-17T18:29:41Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Maybe. Some might be skeptical as to whether a women’s studies degree helps anyone do that. It’s certainly not necessary. Oppression of women occurs mainly in places such as Saudi Arabia and Nigeria. I can’t recall ever encountering an academic feminist focused on assisting women in those places, though it may happen. Instead I hear more about women on campus who can spot a “microagression” anywhere or who are fighting the “rape culture”. “Academic Feminism Useless, says Guy Who Thinks Rape is Trivial and Women Treated Mostly Equally Outside Saudi Arabia and Nigeria.” ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/74 "2015-03-17T19:13:35Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Also, almost every day I can read about someone in the academic world doing something stupid that seems designed to alienate the public. I read about plenty of stupid statements and, in some cases, immoral and criminal acts, committed by members of the Catholic Church. I’m sure you’ll agree that the Church as a whole should be shut down as a result of the acts of those few people. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/75 "2015-03-17T19:32:52Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Then the real people that you know should go in their loan provider’s website and sign up for income based repayment. It takes about 10 minutes and requires faxing a single form once a year. They will take your income, subtract 150% of the poverty line, and then charge 10 or 15 percent of that, depending on when you became a borrower. If you are making minimum wage, that probably works out to nothing or a token payment. In 25 years (or 10 years if you work for government or nonprofits) the loan will be dismissed. > > Of course if you just don’t pay the loans, rather than choosing from on of the 7 repayment plans, they will start using collection agencies and your credit will suffer, which I am guessing is what happened to your friends. Why aren’t your friends using the many real, actual, repayment methods available to them? > > I don’t think lenders look at deferred student loans in the same way as, say, a late credit payment. People routinely defer loans when they are in grad school. I had no problem getting a phone, apartment, utilities, etc. Again, it sounds to me like your friends are defaulting, which is bonehead stupid and not at all necessary. > > The loan services know that these loans cannot be discharged through bankruptcy, so they have no reason to get aggressive on people who indicate they intend to pay and make a good faith effort to do so. I want to point out that these repayment plans only work for federal loans, and not even all of them. Right now I’m on repayment plans for most of my student loans except one, my school-associated Perkins loan. This is because they’re stuck in the dark ages and getting a referral requires stuff that is difficult for me to achieve being out of the country. Luckily, my payment is quite reasonable and maneageable, considering what I have to pay on the other two loans (which are under repayment programs). ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/76 "2015-03-17T19:40:47Z")
In a recession, STEM, manufacturing and IT need to be emphasized. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/77 "2015-03-17T19:43:33Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Back in the 70s tuition relative to minimum wage was such you could pay for most state tuition by working 8-10 hours a week. Tuition has grown much faster than inflation and much, much faster than minimum wage. Also, in early 80s the interest rates sky rocketed, making loans way more expensive, which adds to the problem. I worked my way thru college as a security guard, working 16-40 hours a week, at up to double minimum wage (for the more “dangerous” armed positions) and left college with $2500 in loans. Bought a used pickup truck. But that was then. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/78 "2015-03-17T19:55:55Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Look, I’ll be willing to say it: too many kids are going to four-year schools to obtain a degree that won’t pay itself back in any short- or medium-term. Colleges and universities are pricing themselves out of the market and community and trade colleges are taking up the slack… Well, and that’s the thing- we make jokes out of “Community College” but it’s a great place to: Find out if college is right for you, and if so what’s your major. Get those pre-reqs out of the way cheaply and also staying at home. If higher ed is not your thing, maybe some respected (para)professions such as nursing, law enforcement, para-legal etc is . You can make a good living and be highly respected (including self-respect) as a Nurse. Lots of jobs there too. What I think we should get rid of is the first two years of “college” and replace it entirely with Community College. No more paying thru the nose to go to a prestigious University for two years then finding that you hate it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/79 "2015-03-17T19:59:50Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > Norway has about 6,900 million barrels of proven oil reserves in a country with a population of only 5.1 million. This gives a ratio of about 1,352 barrels / person. > > … > > So, if the US had a third of the world’s oil and then nationalized the asset, formed one of the largest companies in the world and then sold that oil and then kept the profits as part of the governemnt revenues and used that to pay for college, that would be super easy. Yeah. I mean, come on, Norway is an exception. Germany however, does manage to have a limited form of free college, so it’s a better example. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/80 "2015-03-17T20:36:24Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think we need to distinguish between two types of students. The first type gets a degree in order to get a job in order to make enough money to do the type of stuff they want to do after the job. The second have a passion for something learning related. The first are probably fine in a community college, assuming they can get it together to survive two more years of effective high school without a lot of peer pressure. It is wrong for the second set. They will find classes to take, things to do, and connections to make that aren’t available at a community college. I agree, and well said. Personally I’ve always identified with the second type, but regardless, it’s a huge mistake to think of universities as _ **only** _ training grounds for jobs. Some courses, majors, and to an extent some entire faculties are geared that way, but universities fundamentally remain what they have always been since the founding of the _universitas magistrorum et scholarium_: repositories of knowledge and the means of advancing it, and as such one of the most important foundations of progress across the whole spectrum of science and society. So it’s amusing to watch some of the usual suspects from the right trashing academia as they always do. Apparently conservative “traditionalism” means regressing to the medieval dark ages. A few thoughts on the subject of administrative costs and salaries, as there are many complex issues here. I certainly don’t claim to know all of them, but an important element here is how jobs are classified, as the distinctions between academic staff in the sense of faculty, administrative staff, and other kinds of support staff are not always clear and may vary between institutions. ISTM that there is a real lack of consistent reporting. “Administrative staff” often means a lot more than just traditional administrators and might include a wide range of technical and academic support positions. It’s easy to dismiss non-teaching positions as wasteful overhead but that’s just as frivolous as dismissing the functions of government as wasteful, and for exactly the same reason: until you start digging into the details, it’s hard to appreciate the vast range of essential functions that are being provided. Another issue is that this so-called “administrative overhead” is amazingly variable between institutions – the ratio of non-academic to academic salary budgets can vary from more than 2 to less than 0.5. A third factor is that increasing complexities of technologies like IT and others, regulatory compliance, and other factors have made university administration more complex than ever. As far as the OP is concerned, student loans are essential until and unless there is extensive public funding of universities as there is in most of Europe. It’s one or the other, since few students are so wealthy that they can pay their tuition out of pocket. I don’t understand why it’s even a question. > [@Velocity](#): > > In a recession, STEM, manufacturing and IT need to be emphasized. Yeah, right, so that students can graduate five years later in a completely different economy. And because universities are really just vocational schools. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091.md?page=5)