# Abolish student loans **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091 "2015-03-16T02:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/81 "2015-03-17T20:51:19Z")
> [@Hey\_Hey\_Paula](#): > > [bolding mine] When were those days exactly? I went to college (University of California) 1980-84, on a combination of grants, scholarships, student loans and working part-time. No way a minimum wage job would have paid for my tuition, let along living expenses, books and such. I went to the same school, at the same time. IIRC, tuition started at $1000/year, but went up to $1300/year when Cal switched from quarters to semesters in 1983. There was also the $2500/year or so dorm fee, and I think I paid about $300/year (later $200 after the switch to semesters) for books. I managed to pay for everything with a combination of a scholarship and the proverbial “college fund”. Question: how many students probably could afford to attend college without a loan (or at least, not as large a loan as they get), but get the loan so they have the extra money for other things, like paying off all of the interest on the credit card they got so they could pay for Spring Break in Cancun? ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/82 "2015-03-17T20:51:33Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Yes, I think exactly those things. Further, I think there are a lot of courses offered at many campuses that are mostly useless, and a lot of academic work is utter nonsense. It’s not just women’s studies. That was just the first obvious example that popped into my head while I was writing my first post. > > Also, almost every day I can read about someone in the academic world doing something stupid that seems designed to alienate the public. Just a few days ago, a student group at UC Irvine passed a resolution demanding that the American flag be removed from a particular building, citing reasons such as “The American flag has been flown in instances of colonialism and imperialism” and “freedom of speech, in a space that aims to be as inclusive as possible, can be interpreted as hate speech”. That group of students was overruled by a higher group of the student council, who voted that the flag could stay. But it’s not over yet. A thousands students and dozens of professors have [launched](http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415495/seeking-meaning-life-uc-student-leaders-remove-american-flag-dennis-prager) a petition demanding that the original ban on the flag be enforced. > > So the word from these folks at UC Irvine amounts to a huge middle finger directed at the American people. Yet at the same time, they want those same American taxpayers to send them more and more money. The more stupid things that campus groups do, the more it will alienate the voters, and the less inclined those voters will feel towards sending more money to the universities. This is obvious. Only an academic at a prestigious university could possibly fail to see it. You treat this incident at UCI as if it’s self-evidently a bad thing. The US flag, like all national flags, does often indicate imperialism and colonialism. I notice, now that I’m quoting your post, that your link does not go to the actual petition, but to a neocon National Review article by ignorant reactionary Dennis Prager. Sneaky. I was really surprised and pleased to see this at UCI, inasmuch as Irvine was once described (if hyperbolically) as “the most racist city imaginable” by Zack De La Rocha, who grew up there while his mother was pursuing her anthropology PhD. It was a formative influence. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/83 "2015-03-17T21:13:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What I think we should get rid of is the first two years of “college” and replace it entirely with Community College. No more paying thru the nose to go to a prestigious University for two years then finding that you hate it. Even for people, such as high-achieving low income college students, for whom attending community college is associated with lower grades and higher drop out rates? Not everyone has a stable, safe, supportive family to spend a couple extra years with. Not everyone has family that is supportive or even vaguely informed about the value of what they are doing. Some people- lots of people, actually- can expect to be asked to skip class in order to babysit, will not have access to a quiet study area, will be expected to contribute to the household income while they live there, and otherwise will face dozens of extra roadblocks that are well documented to hamper their ability to take full advantage of their education. The best thing you can do for high-achieving low-income students is move hell and high water to get them in to an academically focused environment geared toward study and full of similarly high-achieving people. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/84 "2015-03-17T21:13:53Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So the word from these folks at UC Irvine amounts to a huge middle finger directed at the American people. Do you buy your opinions from Rush Limbaugh or Karl Rove? Choosing to remove all national symbols from a single room in a single building may be a silly idea that does not accomplish its stated goal, but your figurative middle finger salute is just about as stupid a claim as that of the original proposal. Nothing in the original proposal and nothing in the (slightly) larger effort to have the original intent honored, (that can in no way be considered “the folks at UC Irvine,” the majority of whom actually shut down the proposal), says anything disparaging about the American people and is not intended as an insult. People who go out of their way to discover insults that were never intended deserve all the discomfort they embrace from their manufactured cause while deserving no sympathy for their self-inflicted wounds. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/85 "2015-03-17T21:50:08Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > The US flag, like all national flags, does often indicate imperialism and colonialism. Bullshit. Name a US colony. The US has never gone into European style Imperialism. The closet we came is the Philippines, which we _liberated_ from a _true_ European Imperialistic Colonial power. True, there was quite a bit of “little brown brother” paternalism going on there, but the idea was to liberate the Philippines then bring it into a free modern democratic nation. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/86 "2015-03-17T22:04:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Bullshit. Name a US colony. The US has never gone into European style Imperialism. The closet we came is the Philippines, which we _liberated_ from a _true_ European Imperialistic Colonial power. True, there was quite a bit of “little brown brother” paternalism going on there, but the idea was to liberate the Philippines then bring it into a free modern democratic nation. Your conception of colonialism and imperialism is too narrow. The US has routinely intervened in other countries to overrule democratic processes in order to make their governments more friendly to our interests, or outright installed puppet leaders. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/87 "2015-03-17T22:07:50Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Your conception of colonialism and imperialism is too narrow. If you dont keep a word/phrase definition narrow enough, it becomes all inclusive and thus meaningless. The people who use the term “US Imperialism” are just using it to get knee-jerk reactions. It’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/88 "2015-03-17T22:10:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Bullshit. Name a US colony. The US has never gone into European style Imperialism. The closet we came is the Philippines, which we _liberated_ from a _true_ European Imperialistic Colonial power. True, there was quite a bit of “little brown brother” paternalism going on there, but the idea was to liberate the Philippines then bring it into a free modern democratic nation. The US has preferred to rule through local satraps, rather than directly, but, since you asked: The contiguous areas of the US within North America were (are) colonized and occupied by settlers via a campaign of ethnic cleansing against the indigenous tribes. During the Occupy days, there was some debate in places like New Mexico about using the term “Occupy”, with some preferring “Occupied.” The Philippines was indeed a straight-up imperialistic venture, which infuriated Filipinos who naively thought their liberation was at hand. The self-serving excuses you refer to are the same ones imperialists always use, and they justified brutal repression, as usual. The Philippines have/has never really been free, as Washington has continued to wield enormous leverage through the Marcos dictatorship and the neoliberal “democratic” regimes that have followed. There’s the pre-statehood history of Hawaii. There’s Haiti and the Dominican Republic, which the US occupied for a time (repeatedly) before they went the Filipino route. The same thing happened in Nicaragua and elsewhere. Speaking of the Philippines, there’s the occupation of Cuba following the Spanish-American War, a portion of which continues today. There’s the dirty trick that led to the theft of half of Mexico. Oh yeah, there’s Iraq today, where some in Congress and elsewhere wanted to stay forever, but surprise surprise, they failed to control Iraq’s internal political processes! Those are just the direct examples, and there are probably more. I could go on and on about the local gangsters who usually do the colonial work, and then there’s the empire of military bases (would you permit a foreign military base in the US?) This sounds like just the material for a teach-in at UCI! ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/89 "2015-03-17T22:13:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If you dont keep a word/phrase definition narrow enough, it becomes all inclusive and thus meaningless. > > The people who use the term “US Imperialism” are just using it to get knee-jerk reactions. It’s bullshit. Or perhaps it becomes more accurate. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/90 "2015-03-17T22:27:35Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > The Philippines was indeed a straight-up imperialistic venture, which infuriated Filipinos who naively thought their liberation was at hand. > > There’s the pre-statehood history of Hawaii. Yeah, gee, those horrible US Imperialists who passed the _Philippine Autonomy Act_, and set up a independent democratic government after freeing the Philippines from a real Imperialistic power- Spain. Yes, what about it? The \*citizens \*of Hawaii _asked_ to become a US territory. You’re not talking about Queen Liliʻuokalani who abrogated the Constitution, tried to bring back an absolute monarchy and brought in race-based rights, where only Native Hawaiians (as opposed to Hawaiian natives) would have any rights at all- and income was to be from lotteries & opium sales to her “subjects”?:rolleyes: In other words, a non-democratic racist based regime? Not surprising that the mixed and white _island born natives_ staged a bloodless \*counter-coup and re-instated the Constitution. Note that her native subjects didnt care to support her, not one raised a hand. In fact _“Her ministers, and closest friends, were all opposed to this plan; they unsuccessfully tried to dissuade her from pursuing these initiatives,…”_ - Ok, one policeman was wounded. But he got better. \*\*But we digress into hijackdom. Start a new thread. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/91 "2015-03-17T22:39:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, gee, those horrible US Imperialists who passed the _Philippine Autonomy Act_, and set up a independent democratic government after freeing the Philippines from a real Imperialistic power- Spain. > \*\*But we digress into hijackdom. Start a new thread. \*\* Not yet. I’m not going to argue about Hawaii, but regarding the Philippines, words matter less than deeds. Referring to Spain as a “real Imperialistic power” is both a No True Scotsman and a red herring. Autonomy acts and supposedly independent democratic governments mean little when the US continued to rule directly for decades (moderated by such things as domestic anti-imperialist pressure) and indirectly to the present day. Marcos and his successors have always done what the US told him to do, and substantive opposition was/is repressed. Nearby, in Taiwan, Chiang Kai-Shek embarked on a land reform campaign in the 1950s, because he knew that was a necessary first step towards prosperity. He got away with it because “Only Nixon Could Go To China”, i.e. nobody could Red-bait him. At around the same time, Guatemalan President Jacobo Arbenz Guzman tried to institute land reform, only to have Washington scream about Communists, instigate a coup, and support right-wing dictators in the decades of violence that followed (and then Guatemalans are punished as “illegal immigrants” when they flee.) Compare and contrast the fortunes, or lack thereof, in Taiwan, Guatemala, and the Philippines. That’s imperialism, and it’s ongoing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/92 "2015-03-17T22:44:41Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Not yet. > > . Sorry. “But we digress into hijackdom. Start a new thread.” ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/93 "2015-03-17T22:53:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sorry. “But we digress into hijackdom. Start a new thread.” Sure, sure. I couldn’t let that last one go. Possession of the battlefield, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/94 "2015-03-18T00:41:42Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So in effect, students majoring in chemistry and other technical fields are subsidizing humanities departments. This is completely false. Even if your claim about faculty/student ratios is true (and it’s not true at all campuses), the fact is that the salaries in the technical fields tend to be considerably higher than in the humanities, and the infrastructure and journal requirements for technical fields are also MUCH more expensive. Yes, technical departments often get industry and grant funds, but they still cost a lot of money. All you father needs to teach his history course is a classroom with some desks, and possibly a computer and a screen at the front. Compare that to the laboratory and other technical requirements for a chemistry lab. Journal subscriptions in scientific and technical field are also generally much more expensive that humanities journals. And, in my university system at least, faculty in fields like chemistry and engineering are paid more (often tens of thousands of dollars more) than humanities faculty with similar levels of seniority and similar publication records. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/95 "2015-03-18T00:44:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What I think we should get rid of is the first two years of “college” and replace it entirely with Community College. No more paying thru the nose to go to a prestigious University for two years then finding that you hate it. Those who go to prestigious universities usually can transfer to other ones fairly easily. My first two years of college I took a whole bunch of classes (Systems Programming, Computational Linguistics) that no community college would ever have given. I got to be librarian of one of the biggest sf collections in the world. I got taught by famous professors, even for basic classes. And I got to do it in an atmosphere of academic excellence that pretty much pushed us all. Community colleges are great for those who want to do the vocational training needed for nursing and the like. But don’t assume that works for everyone. That is just as wrong as assuming that everyone just has to go to a four year college. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/96 "2015-03-18T00:48:30Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So in effect, students majoring in chemistry and other technical fields are subsidizing humanities departments. And, in case you want some [evidence](http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/bottom-line-shows-humanities-really-155771): > [@](#): > > But, according to spreadsheet calculations done at my request by Reem Hanna-Harwell, assistant dean of the humanities at the University of California at Los Angeles, based on the latest annual student-credit hours, fee levels, and total general-fund expenditures, the humanities there generate over $59 million in student fees, while spending only $53.5 million (unlike the physical sciences, which came up several million dollars short in that category). The entire teaching staff of Writing Programs, which is absolutely essential to UCLA’s educational mission, has been sent firing notices, even though the spreadsheet shows that program generating $4.3 million dollars in fee revenue, at a cost of only $2.4 million. > > So the answer to “Who’s going to pay the salary of the English department?” is that the English department at UCLA earns its own salary and more, through the fees paid by its students — profits that will only grow with the increase in student fees. > > That isn’t an eccentric calculation. Of the 21 units at the University of Washington, the humanities and, to a lesser degree, the social sciences are the only ones that generate more tuition income than 100 percent of their total expenditure. Cary Nelson, president of the American Association of University Professors, recently cited a University of Illinois report showing that a large humanities department like English produces a substantial net profit, whereas units such as engineering and agriculture run at a loss. The widely respected Delaware Study of Instructional Costs and Productivity shows the same pattern. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/97 "2015-03-18T00:57:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Those who go to prestigious universities usually can transfer to other ones fairly easily. > > My first two years of college I took a whole bunch of classes (Systems Programming, Computational Linguistics) that no community college would ever have given. I got to be librarian of one of the biggest sf collections in the world. I got taught by famous professors, even for basic classes. And I got to do it in an atmosphere of academic excellence that pretty much pushed us all. > > Community colleges are great for those who want to do the vocational training needed for nursing and the like. But don’t assume that works for everyone. That is just as wrong as assuming that everyone just has to go to a four year college. Not only that, but at research universities, students can do some easy-level research/obtain research experience and skills from working at labs or shadowing professors or working at the college or other facilities that they wouldn’t get if they attended a community college. And this is important if these students want to attend graduate or professional schools. I finished my bachelor’s in three years. After my first year I volunteered as a research assistant. I also inverted the trend and took most of my general education requirements on my last year. I took a lot of classes not offered in community college. And I second what **even sven** said. There was an article about it, a couple of years ago, of the situation she describes. It also followed four different bright students and how they fared. Sadly, I think most of them didn’t make it, mainly because of things like what **even sven** said. If the environment is not conducive to learning, it doesn’t help a bright student to stay in community college, but instead he/she benefits from going to the hardest school it can. And if he/she is bright enough, the school would do the most it can to make it possible. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/98 "2015-03-18T01:36:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > My first two years of college I took a whole bunch of classes (Systems Programming, Computational Linguistics) that no community college would ever have given … I got taught by famous professors, even for basic classes. And I got to do it in an atmosphere of academic excellence that pretty much pushed us all. > > Community colleges are great for those who want to do the vocational training needed for nursing and the like. But don’t assume that works for everyone. That is just as wrong as assuming that everyone just has to go to a four year college. Once again I agree with everything you said. I just want to add that the inspirational environment you describe is contingent not only on a high quality university but on the _ **right** _ one for your particular program. One of the sad realities is that some of the prestigious schools focus on graduate programs and research and consider the undergraduate program – at least the general stream – to cater to the vast unwashed masses, to be processed according to the principles of mass production and cattle herding. Honors programs can be much better and graduate school is a whole different world. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/99 "2015-03-18T04:02:41Z")
A coworker recently gave me his reasoning for why education was so expensive: colleges are charging students not how much it costs but how much the student can afford. I was resistant to this at first but I think it helps the mechanics for the rise in expense. A college starts out with a massive tuition that almost nobody pays. Instead they work with the student and give just enough scholarships and loans until the student can afford the tuition. The result is that many students are paying the absolute max (or a bit more) that they can afford. No other major industry charges you according to what you can afford. I don’t know what the answer is; scholarships/loans are instrumental for lower-income students so we can’t abolish them. One thing that might help is if students/parents were more conscious of price and compared offers. How many schools make their low price a selling point? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/100 "2015-03-18T07:35:19Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Once again I agree with everything you said. I just want to add that the inspirational environment you describe is contingent not only on a high quality university but on the _ **right** _ one for your particular program. One of the sad realities is that some of the prestigious schools focus on graduate programs and research and consider the undergraduate program – at least the general stream – to cater to the vast unwashed masses, to be processed according to the principles of mass production and cattle herding. Honors programs can be much better and graduate school is a whole different world. As **KarlGrenze** said, the real top universities give their undergrads research opportunities. This was just starting at MIT when I went there - now everyone does it. And even I did an undergraduate thesis which was a real board design, that was very educational. Plus I took a graduate level class my senior year that inspired my graduate school research. I see the resumes of students from MIT, and I’m glad I’m as old as I am, since I could never compete these days. Like anything else the student has to be motivated to seek out opportunities. But they are there, and they are not there in community colleges. Another thing - my friends in college got established early in my freshman year. It would be hard to come in late and try to get established. You can also follow your hobbies even if your major is practical. I took lots of philosophy classes. My daughter, an econ major, took hieroglyphics one year and cuneiform another just for fun. I had gotten into Cooper Union also, free back then and pretty close to home. I decided to move away to college and I’ve never regretted it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091.md?page=6)