# Abolish student loans **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091 "2015-03-16T02:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/121 "2015-03-26T21:32:19Z")
> [@Enright3](#): > > I’m surprised no one has yet to bring up Mike Rowe who has some thought provoking things to say on the subject. > > “If we are lending money that ostensibly we don’t have to kids who have no hope of making it back in order to train them for jobs that clearly don’t exist, I might suggest that we’ve gone around the bend a little bit,” > > [Article](http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/09/dirty-jobs-mike-rowe-on-the-high-cost-of) > [Youtube Interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzKzu86Agg0) The average student loan debt from public and non-profit colleges is $28,000-- A chunk of change, for sure. But hardly an unrepayable debt. The average cost of a new car, for example, is over $31,000. Are you really saying that college graduates have no hope of ever scraping together enough money to buy a new car? For reference, the average American buys 9 new cars in a lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/122 "2015-03-27T01:08:39Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Ah, yes, let’s eliminate the means by which hundreds of thousands of students go to college every year. That’s a winning ticket! Yes, we definitely need more psychology, journalism, art and history majors. The workforce is dying for them. Or teachers. They can teach others to teach. That’s the ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/123 "2015-03-27T01:34:16Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I teach in the CSU system, and there has certainly been a significant increase in the number of well-paid administrative staff in the last decade. The number of Admin III and Admin IV positions, paying six-figure salaries, have increased 30-50 percent at some CSU campuses over the past eight or ten years. SDSU, for example, had 28 Admin IV people and 44 Admin III people in 2007, and 41 and 67 respectively in 2013. > > [This book](https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-fall-of-the-faculty-9780199975433?q=Fall%20of%20the%20faculty&lang=en&cc=us), The Fall of the Faculty, is an interesting look at the administrative bloat that has become part of higher education. This is not to say that all administrative expansion is bad or unproductive–the growth of student numbers requires some administrative growth–but the percentage of spending on administrative staff has increased at lots of universities recently. It’s a point of contention for members of faculty unions, which argue that, given the primary mission of the universities is education, we should be hiring more faculty rather than more administrators. > > [This report](http://www.deltacostproject.org/sites/default/files/products/Trends-in-College-Spending-98-08.pdf) (PDF), which covers the decade up to 2008, notes: Agreed - but some of that increase in admin numbers has come with changes in our society. Zimbardo could run the Stanford prison experiment because there was minimal oversight. Now you have to run every study by human subjects committees. When I was in school, they had one “minority affairs” admin staffer. Now it is a fully staffed office. There wasn’t an IT department for faculty yet. There was no email. Now you need an entire team just for faculty IT support, not to mention support for students. Grants with indirect cost support and government auditing requires grant coordinators and accountants. We can add in other challenges - like the union wages and protection for many of those staffers. A couple of staffers I know at the University of California joined at 18. After 40 years, they retire with 100% of their salary. Their job never really changed, but over time the description was kicked up a few notches and they are doing well too. They are making more than pre-tenure faculty. Students expect a fully-staffed career center, that requires a different level of admin support as well. Random thoughts in no particular order… ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/124 "2015-03-27T01:51:10Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Yes, we definitely need more psychology, journalism, art and history majors. The workforce is dying for them. Or teachers. They can teach others to teach. That’s the ticket. Let me introduce you to the concept of teaching students think, write, and reason. Best done with two philosophy majors: Exhibit A: Peter Thiel (PayPal Mafia) [Peter Thiel - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Thiel) Exhibit B: Dave Elkington (founder / CEO of InsideSales): [How To Optimize Team Performance With Sales Dashboards - InsideSales](http://www.insidesales.com/about-us/team) I run marketing. I love psych majors - they take stats, they write, and they reason. I can teach them a few business concepts. History majors can be great as well, and the journalism folks are who I use for content creation. ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/125 "2015-03-27T15:54:55Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > A coworker recently gave me his reasoning for why education was so expensive: colleges are charging students not how much it costs but how much the student can afford. > > I was resistant to this at first but I think it helps the mechanics for the rise in expense. A college starts out with a massive tuition that almost nobody pays. Instead they work with the student and give just enough scholarships and loans until the student can afford the tuition. The result is that many students are paying the absolute max (or a bit more) that they can afford. No other major industry charges you according to what you can afford. > > I don’t know what the answer is; scholarships/loans are instrumental for lower-income students so we can’t abolish them. One thing that might help is if students/parents were more conscious of price and compared offers. How many schools make their low price a selling point? This is on point. Even private colleges are doing this (very few people are paying the full tuition that is advertised). But they are all doing it because they have to. Demographic shifts in the northeast (for example) are creating some intensive competitions between all of the schools trying to grab the same (shrinking) pool of students. Without a doubt some schools will go under in the next 10-20 years. Also, at least in my work experience (at 2 state universities), no one is just willy nilly hiring administrators. Plus, as soon as things get tight, they are chopped or just not replaced. There is an intense pressure to keep manpower at a minimum, and positions are intentionally left unfilled. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/126 "2015-03-29T06:50:32Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > History majors can be great as well… Send me an app!😉 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/127 "2015-03-29T15:45:12Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I run marketing. I love psych majors - they take stats, they write, and they reason. I can teach them a few business concepts. History majors can be great as well, and the journalism folks are who I use for content creation. I teach history to university students. The problem with history is that most people think they know what it is and how to do it. They think that, because they watch the occasional Ken Burns picture, or because they fixed up a minor problem with a Wikipedia page once, they know what historical thinking and analysis are. And because they “know” about history, they think that people who study and teach it are basically wasting time and money doing something that any mope with a library card could do. Sounds like **handsomeharry** could be one of those types of people. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/128 "2015-03-31T02:08:51Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Send me an app!😉 Wait a minute…how many ‘levels’ of marketing? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/129 "2015-03-31T02:54:45Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I teach history to university students. > > The problem with history is that most people think they know what it is and how to do it. They think that, because they watch the occasional Ken Burns picture, or because they fixed up a minor problem with a Wikipedia page once, they know what historical thinking and analysis are. And because they “know” about history, they think that people who study and teach it are basically wasting time and money doing something that any mope with a library card could do. Sounds like **handsomeharry** could be one of those types of people. Well, I can’t really say that I follow how you got that impression, but, oh, well… My point was that a history degree is about as valuable as a journalism and/or psych degree, in the marketplace. Witness my BA in History. And, my job search. (I have my own business, now, so, I’m not crying about the market, just pointing out the lack of marketability.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/130 "2015-03-31T13:23:47Z")
Yes, but the refutation is that no baccalaureate degree is inherently valuable today. Perhaps engineering, though IME most proper engineers get graduate degrees. They’re just a check on a resume; they don’t _prove_ anything. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/131 "2015-04-01T22:30:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes, but the refutation is that no baccalaureate degree is inherently valuable today. Yes, that was my whole point. And, even at that, an advanced degree in Liberal Arts is pretty worthless. I had one professor who had a History PhD. from Rutgers,and he said that the market was glutted. That was 30 plus years ago. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/132 "2015-04-01T22:40:52Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Yes, that was my whole point. But you’re wrong. The degree is, in fact, inherently valuable, because in the modern educational and employment environment there are many jobs that you will not even be considered for without the degree. The degree itself might not guarantee you any particular job, but by opening up a wider range of job opportunities, it demonstrates its value. Ask all the people without degrees who miss out on jobs whether a degree has any inherent value. You and i might believe that you shouldn’t really need a degree to work a counter at Enterprise Rent-a-Car, or to pick up an entry-level job in some business office, but if those and hundreds of other jobs will only hire people with degrees, then they need the degree, and the degree has value. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/133 "2015-04-02T06:23:22Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I teach history to university students. > > The problem with history is that most people think they know what it is and how to do it. They think that, because they watch the occasional Ken Burns picture, or because they fixed up a minor problem with a Wikipedia page once, they know what historical thinking and analysis are. And because they “know” about history, they think that people who study and teach it are basically wasting time and money doing something that any mope with a library card could do. Sounds like **handsomeharry** could be one of those types of people. BTW, what are your qualifications to get the job teaching history to U. students? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/134 "2015-04-02T06:31:14Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But you’re wrong. The degree is, in fact, inherently valuable, because in the modern educational and employment environment there are many jobs that you will not even be considered for without the degree. Well, you’re wrong then; \*the \*degree isn’t inherently valuable. \*A \*degree is transactionally valuable. Anybody knows that a degree can help one get a better job; if, that is, there is a job that requires any old degree. If there are any, now, such jobs are over-saturated with too many qualified applicants for each one. That, in itself, makes the degree, as pointed out earlier, merely a check mark on a resume. Meaning, inherently worthless. ---
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/135 "2015-04-02T07:08:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes, but the refutation is that no baccalaureate degree is inherently valuable today. Perhaps engineering, though IME most proper engineers get graduate degrees. They’re just a check on a resume; they don’t _prove_ anything. For engineers it is often not worth it to get an engineering degree. The increase in earning potential just isn’t enough to justify spending several years of your life getting a graduate degree. Scientists get graduate degrees. The earning potential between someone with a bachelor’s degree in chemistry and a PhD in chemistry is significant. Both scientists and engineers do get paid to be graduate students, though less than they could make in other jobs. Engineers can usually make more right out of undergraduate, so they pay a higher price for going to grad school. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/136 "2015-04-02T07:15:17Z")
> [@buddy431](#): > > For engineers it is often not worth it to get an engineering degree. The increase in earning potential just isn’t enough to justify spending several years of your life getting a graduate degree. > > Scientists get graduate degrees. The earning potential between someone with a bachelor’s degree in chemistry and a PhD in chemistry is significant. > > Both scientists and engineers do get paid to be graduate students, though less than they could make in other jobs. Engineers can usually make more right out of undergraduate, so they pay a higher price for going to grad school. We hire very few engineers with bachelor’s degrees. I don’t know what undergrad degrees go for, but here in Silicon Valley Engineering PhDs get six figures right out of school. I suspect that’s a bit more than BS people get. ---
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/137 "2015-04-02T07:51:44Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We hire very few engineers with bachelor’s degrees. I don’t know what undergrad degrees go for, but here in Silicon Valley Engineering PhDs get six figures right out of school. I suspect that’s a bit more than BS people get. Something over 40% of [chemistry graduates](http://cen.acs.org/articles/90/i23/Starting-Salaries.html) go on to pursue a PhD. I can’t find the exact same statistic for engineers, but I see that there are about [10,000 PhDs in engineering awarded in 2012,](https://www.asee.org/papers-and-publications/publications/11-47.pdf) vs. 88,000 bachelor’s degrees, which suggests that significantly fewer engineers go on to pursue PhDs. The monkey wrench so to speak is the masters degree. There were about 49,000 engineering masters awarded in 2012, so over half of engineers are going to get their masters. For physics a more direct comparison is possible: [in 2006](http://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200811/degrees.cfm) there are around 5373 undergraduate degrees awarded, and 1380 PhDs (there were 2976 first year PhD students enrolled, which is really awful attrition. About a third of physics graduates will immediately enrole in a PhD program, and 15% will eventually earn one) So the difference maybe isn’t as big as I made it out to be, though it is true that physical scientists are more likely to pursue PhDs than engineers. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/138 "2015-04-02T16:29:26Z")
> [@buddy431](#): > > So the difference maybe isn’t as big as I made it out to be, though it is true that physical scientists are more likely to pursue PhDs than engineers. Sounds reasonable. We not hiring many doesn’t mean that there aren’t many around, it is a function of our recruiting policy. But engineering PhDs do pay off. Or EE/CS ones, at least. Versus BS that is. I hire lots of PhDs because our specialty isn’t taught much at the Masters level, because I’ve found that PhD people are better at technical leadership, and I have a good network of professors in my area from which I can recruit. But the salary gap is not as great. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091/139 "2015-04-02T17:57:45Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Well, you’re wrong then; \*the \*degree isn’t inherently valuable. \*A \*degree is transactionally valuable. > > Anybody knows that a degree can help one get a better job; if, that is, there is a job that requires any old degree. If there are any, now, such jobs are over-saturated with too many qualified applicants for each one. That, in itself, makes the degree, as pointed out earlier, merely a check mark on a resume. Meaning, inherently worthless. I post an entry level marketing position for my software company, and my HR team gets hundreds of resumes. I am willing to read some of them, so how do we narrow it down? First cut - have you actually submitted a resume, or a link to your LinkedIn profile (I work in tech marketing - you WILL have a LinkedIn profile. Period.) Did you provide a well written cover note / email / letter with your submission that shows that you actually looked at my company website for more than 5 minutes? Next easy cut - do you have a degree? I will look at an associates from one of the local community colleges, plus people with a bachelors. I need to know that you have had assignments that you turned in on a timetable, resulting in earning a degree. That cuts the list in half. Internal referrals get points, as does anyone who has done an internship (and I also run internships - got a good kid here at the office right now who will get an offer once he graduates). So - that worthless degree? You won’t get an interview with me without one. Now, if another company hires you, trains you, and moves you up - I will take a look at you for a mid-career position depending on where you were working and what your position was. You have a shot with me at that point because I can look at your work history for proof of an ability to manage tasks. But starting out? All I have to go on is your education. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-student-loans/715091.md?page=6)