# Abolish the police? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205 "2020-06-07T17:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/181 "2020-06-10T22:04:28Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I am having a rational response, and acknowledging the emotional response of those who live with the “policing” that they get. > > watch this, and tell me what she has wrong. Spoiled for NSF language. > > [this](https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY?t=1915) > > You tell me how we rebuild the social contract. How do we build the trust in the community? > > Once again, they have been told time and time again that there will be no changes, no reforms. They have been told that they can take the policing that they get, or that they will not have any police to protect them. What other position can you take. She has every right to feel the way she does. Nothing that I can offer in the way of contradicting her. We rebuild the social contract because we have no other option. We rebuild because I think the alternative will lead to far worse outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/182 "2020-06-10T22:07:36Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Honestly, I’d say the reason to burn it all down is that the police don’t think anything is broken at all. They are the people committing the violence we want stopped, and they think the violence is completely justified. Not just the ‘bad apples’ but huge swaths of the LEO community think that these deaths and beatings, and tasings are just what ‘needs’ to be done to police the people who live in this country. > > How do you fix the fact that an entire 57 member squad of a police department thinks it was good and correct to put an old man in the hospital because he didn’t move when told to? That squad and more officers came out to cheer the officers who shoved the guy down and busted his skull. How do you fix that? In this instance, you fire the entire fucking squad. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/183 "2020-06-10T22:16:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > We have had countless “reforms”, and we still are where we are. > > We need something more than meaningless platitudes that they will do better. > > The police need to be entirely rebuilt from the ground up, from the principles of “protect and serve.” > > We cannot just take the one we have, and try to “fix” it. Sometimes, it’s just too broken for that. What does this mean though? Are we saying fire them all and send them all home to think on their sins? If that isn’t what we mean, then isn’t this just more platitudes using more evocative language? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/184 "2020-06-10T22:19:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I am having a rational response, and acknowledging the emotional response of those who live with the “policing” that they get. > > watch this, and tell me what she has wrong. Spoiled for NSF language. > > [this](https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY?t=1915) What she has wrong is advocating violence, terrorism, and open revolution. I’m all for changing police tactics. When she starts talking about destroying shit, she loses me and many, many other people. “We” don’t own anything. Who is “we”? Blacks? A hell of a lot of white people work for employee wages and don’t own anything either. Rosewood. Fuck me. I wasn’t there. Were you? Was anyone still alive? Do we deserve to be tarred for Rosewood? On the basis of simply our skin color? They blame conservatives for not being inclusive. Do you hear any inclusivity there? Nope. It’s a war: black vs. white in her mind. I find that deeply troubling instead of reassuring. I was taught from a young age not to divide into us versus them shit. This lady is excluding many, many people who are not only willing to help her, but suffer from the same thing she is complaining of. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/185 "2020-06-10T22:47:12Z")
And just to follow up on that, a person like me who lives an upper middle class lifestyle has absolutely nothing in common with the white guy that owns Target. Nothing at all. We don’t rub elbows or drink scotch together at the country club. That dude is not in my social circle anymore than in that lady’s social circle. But her racism would lead her to believe that because the guy that owns Target and me both have the same skin color, that I could say that “we” own Target. That was the type of racial thing I was taught was very wrong…and that was in the 1980s. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/186 "2020-06-10T23:08:23Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > And just to follow up on that, a person like me who lives an upper middle class lifestyle has absolutely nothing in common with the white guy that owns Target. Nothing at all. We don’t rub elbows or drink scotch together at the country club. That dude is not in my social circle anymore than in that lady’s social circle. > > But her racism would lead her to believe that because the guy that owns Target and me both have the same skin color, that I could say that “we” own Target. That was the type of racial thing I was taught was very wrong…and that was in the 1980s. “Us and them” is easy to avoid when there hasn’t been a 400 year history of “them” systematically brutalizing, raping, and murdering people who look like you. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/187 "2020-06-10T23:16:20Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So this is what I get if I finally see the light and vote for Democrats? No police? Lawless gangs roaming the street? > > That idea is insanity. Keep pushing that and watch where the swing voters go this fall. The idea is crazy. But Biden doesnt want that, and even AOC just wants to cut the fat from a bloated budget. So, this isnt the Democrats asking to abolish the police. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/188 "2020-06-10T23:20:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > …You think there are issue with police brutality against minorities now? Imagine a private police force accountable only to the gated communities that pay its wages. Wait. Is that…[samba music](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HZshIb5IJQU) I’m hearing, getting closer? Abolish the police. LOL. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/189 "2020-06-10T23:36:42Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Would the private police force be protected by laws that prevent bystanders from stopping the private police force if they were kneeling on a guy’s neck until the guy died? Who would enforce the laws that prohibited police from doing so if the police force is fragmented and privatized? How good have corporation beens historically in self policing and sensitivity training? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/190 "2020-06-10T23:46:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > In this instance, you fire the entire fucking squad. It isn’t coincidence that all 57 cheered the charged officers. It’s not a curious collection of 57 terrible people it’s the culture. That culture has infected police forces across the nation. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/191 "2020-06-11T00:19:39Z")
I really don’t understand what’s being suggested by people saying we should “abolish the police”. It’s 2 AM and I see someone trying to break into my neighbor’s garage, what are you proposing should happen? I get into my car and start driving 120 mph down the interstate, what should happen? I’m a divorced woman who has sole custody of my 8-year-old child, and my ex-husband comes over drunk, grabs the kid and drives off with him, what should I do? I’m a woman who invited a man over to my house after a dinner date, but it’s now 11 PM and he refuses to leave unless I sleep with him, and is getting aggressive, what should I do? If your answer to these questions is “an organization associated with the government and authorized to use force should respond and address the situation”, hey, guess what, that’s called “the police”. If your answer is “deal with it yourself”, you’re a lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/192 "2020-06-11T00:45:41Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > I really don’t understand what’s being suggested by people saying we should “abolish the police”. > > It’s 2 AM and I see someone trying to break into my neighbor’s garage, what are you proposing should happen? Call the police. > [@Absolute](#): > > I get into my car and start driving 120 mph down the interstate, what should happen? A patrol car will follow you. > [@Absolute](#): > > I’m a divorced woman who has sole custody of my 8-year-old child, and my ex-husband comes over drunk, grabs the kid and drives off with him, what should I do? Call the police. > [@Absolute](#): > > I’m a woman who invited a man over to my house after a dinner date, but it’s now 11 PM and he refuses to leave unless I sleep with him, and is getting aggressive, what should I do? Call the police. > [@](#): > > If your answer to these questions is “an organization associated with the government and authorized to use force should respond and address the situation”, hey, guess what, that’s called “the police”. If your answer is “deal with it yourself”, you’re a lunatic. Wrong on both and I even wrote the replies without reading the end of your post until later… So nope, you just did not read what the ones that propose that are actually proposing, they are talking about the police that we should get right after the current one is dismissed. [https://www.bloomberg.com/businessweek](https://www.bloomberg.com/businessweek) > [@](#): > > Homicides in Camden reached 67 in 2012; the figure for 2019 was 25. Over the past seven years, the department has undertaken some of the most far-reaching police reforms in the country, and its approach has been praised by former President Barack Obama. > > The transformation began after the 2012 homicide spike. The department wanted to put more officers on patrol but couldn’t afford to hire more, partly because of generous union contracts. So in 2013, the mayor and city council dissolved the local PD and signed an agreement for the county to provide shared services. The new county force is double the size of the old one, and officers almost exclusively patrol the city. (They were initially nonunion but have since unionized.) Increasing the head count was a trust-building tactic, says Thomson, who served as chief throughout the transition: Daily, noncrisis interactions between residents and cops went up. Police also got de-escalation training and body cameras, and more cameras and devices to detect gunfire were installed around the city. > [@](#): > > BOTTOM LINE - After rebuilding its police force, Camden drove down homicides and reined in use of excessive force. Local activists say police-community relations could still be better. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/193 "2020-06-11T01:02:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Who would enforce the laws that prohibited police from doing so if the police force is fragmented and privatized? How good have corporation beens historically in self policing and sensitivity training? People with guns, of course. That’s why they have guns, right? To protect against law breakers and tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/194 "2020-06-11T02:44:37Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > That’s fair, but I read the essay to be pretty clear. Larger populations with larger incidents of crime could not be policed by Andy and Barney and more organization and more men were needed. > > This was true in Boston or Albany or Charleston. And the specific thing that needed to be policed was peculiar to the place and time. So while Charleston may have indeed needed slave patrols and Boston may have needed to keep people from firing guns in town or Albany had a rash of drunken and disorderly anti-Christian behavior, the roots of policing was because of the large populations, not an effect of the underlying issue. > > I think that is important because to get rid of modern policing (and I could be persuaded) would require throwing out the last 170 years of knowledge on the subject and declaring it wrong. To do that, we should do it for the right reasons instead of just declaring it has racist roots. Really modern policing has its roots in controlling “workers.” In the South that meant slaves. In the North that meant the poor, most often immigrants. I was reading up on this myself and found the Snopes article unsatisfying (as has been noted up-thread), but found this article more enlightening: [https://plsonline.eku.edu/sites/plsonline.eku.edu/files/the-history-of-policing-in-us.pdf](https://plsonline.eku.edu/sites/plsonline.eku.edu/files/the-history-of-policing-in-us.pdf) Essentially modern policing and the idea of a “patrol” (as opposed to the police showing up only when needed) came from the desire of businesses to break up rebellions and strikes. And rebellions and strikes were mainly slave and immigrant uprisings. So the roots of American policing are racist, but poor white immigrant populations ultimately were allowed to assimilate while black populations have continued to be systemically repressed. I often see the claim made that US policing had its roots exclusively in slave-catching, and while the half-truth of that claim bothers my love of facts, I don’t see much point in pushing back against it because the police can be plenty racist anyway without a direct connection to slavery, and they’ve certainly all developed from systems of corruption and oppression. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/195 "2020-06-11T02:55:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Call the police. > A patrol car will follow you. > > Call the police. > > Call the police. > Wrong on both and I even wrote the replies without reading the end of your post until later… > > So nope, you just did not read what the ones that propose that are actually proposing, they are talking about the police that we should get right after the current one is dismissed. Congratulations on not being a lunatic. But tell me, how many other institutions have been “abolished”, and yet continue to exist by the same name and serving the same function in society? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/196 "2020-06-11T03:05:33Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Congratulations on not being a lunatic. But tell me, how many other institutions have been “abolished”, and yet continue to exist by the same name and serving the same function in society? That point is a Red herring with a hint of a goose chase, deal with the fact that you got it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/197 "2020-06-11T04:49:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Us and them” is easy to avoid when there hasn’t been a 400 year history of “them” systematically brutalizing, raping, and murdering people who look like you. First, she doesn’t have a 400 year history of anything. She is maybe 30 at the most. And to have a “them” is the most abject form of racism that there is. She looks at me like people who participated in the Rosewood Massacre? Or police officers that did her wrong? Why? Because I share the same skin color as them? That says more about her than me. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/198 "2020-06-11T04:59:21Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > First, she doesn’t have a 400 year history of anything. She is maybe 30 at the most. And to have a “them” is the most abject form of racism that there is. She looks at me like people who participated in the Rosewood Massacre? Or police officers that did her wrong? Why? Because I share the same skin color as them? > > That says more about her than me. Perhaps if you said “Yeah, black people have been disenfranchised for many years, and I want to help fellow human beings who have been disenfranchised” you could answer you question of “why?” Is it really that complicated? I mean, do you seriously not think that minorities have been shitted upon for years? I don’t know your anonymous username, but are you white? If you are, how can you not know that white people get the benefit of the doubt almost always? I really don’t understand this POV, and it saddens me ☹ ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/199 "2020-06-11T05:04:26Z")
> [@Kyomara](#): > > Really modern policing has its roots in controlling “workers.” In the South that meant slaves. In the North that meant the poor, most often immigrants. > > I was reading up on this myself and found the Snopes article unsatisfying (as has been noted up-thread), but found this article more enlightening: [https://plsonline.eku.edu/sites/plsonline.eku.edu/files/the-history-of-policing-in-us.pdf](https://plsonline.eku.edu/sites/plsonline.eku.edu/files/the-history-of-policing-in-us.pdf) > > Essentially modern policing and the idea of a “patrol” (as opposed to the police showing up only when needed) came from the desire of businesses to break up rebellions and strikes. And rebellions and strikes were mainly slave and immigrant uprisings. > > So the roots of American policing are racist, but poor white immigrant populations ultimately were allowed to assimilate while black populations have continued to be systemically repressed. I often see the claim made that US policing had its roots exclusively in slave-catching, and while the half-truth of that claim bothers my love of facts, I don’t see much point in pushing back against it because the police can be plenty racist anyway without a direct connection to slavery, and they’ve certainly all developed from systems of corruption and oppression. Your statements are not supported by your cite and the cite itself starts out by citing the roots of policing and then editorializes into its own unsupported position. The only thing that your cite and the Snopes page actually support is the desultory fact that once urban areas reached a certain size you couldn’t count on a part time police force to enforce laws; you needed a full time paid staff. You see that today. A town starts out with a volunteer fire department and then grows to where it needs to hire full time guys with full pay. Nothing nefarious there. And yes, if that meant that runaway slaves were a problem in that city, then they certainly enforced those laws along with all others. But this idea that modern policing is a racist thing is simply made up out of whole cloth. The cites in your article show exactly why the need was there. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/200 "2020-06-11T08:24:13Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Your statements are not supported by your cite and the cite itself starts out by citing the roots of policing and then editorializes into its own unsupported position. > > The only thing that your cite and the Snopes page actually support is the desultory fact that once urban areas reached a certain size you couldn’t count on a part time police force to enforce laws; you needed a full time paid staff. You see that today. A town starts out with a volunteer fire department and then grows to where it needs to hire full time guys with full pay. Nothing nefarious there. > > And yes, if that meant that runaway slaves were a problem in that city, then they certainly enforced those laws along with all others. But this idea that modern policing is a racist thing is simply made up out of whole cloth. The cites in your article show exactly why the need was there. Your interpretation of the article is so egregiously self-serving I don’t think there’s much I can say in response. You’ve pretty much written the whole thing off because it doesn’t support your position. Also: “runaway slaves were a problem in that city.” Hopefully you understand that the problem was slavery, not runaway slaves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=11)