# Abolish the police? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205 "2020-06-07T17:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/341 "2020-06-15T03:33:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, then listen to NPR radio. Thank you for wasting my time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/342 "2020-06-15T04:51:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Thank you for wasting my time. You are welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/343 "2020-06-15T05:13:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You are welcome. What was the name of this big union president, and could you perhaps nail down when this interview occurred within maybe a month or so? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/344 "2020-06-15T05:38:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Mostly wrong on both counts. > NPR had a interview with one of the biggest Police Union Presidents and he said about in about half the firings suggested , the Union didnt defend. The only recent NPR interview I can find of that nature was with Memphis Police Union Head Michael Williams. Is that the one you are referring to? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/345 "2020-06-15T05:48:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > NPR had a interview with one of the biggest Police Union Presidents and he said about in about half the firings suggested , the Union didnt defend. A more interesting question, and one much harder to answer, is how much influence the union has on which firings are even suggested in the first place, either directly or indirectly (i.e., management won’t even suggest firing somebody if they think the union is going to object too strongly). I know from my own experience (not in law enforcement) that there are occasionally people who need and deserve to be fired, but for various reasons management has decided that firing them is going to be too difficult, so they are continually reshuffled to different jobs in an effort to minimize the damage they cause. If the union isn’t even bothering to defend in half of the firings proposed, that most likely is because those individuals are indefensible: the officer convicted of a felony who therefore can’t legally carry a firearm anymore, for example. If half of firings are for something that egregious, my take would be that either that department is hopelessly corrupt or they are not attempting many firings for more complicated or controversial reasons, which means officers who really should be removed are instead being reassigned just because removing them is too difficult and too likely to cause an uproar with the union. I’m a union member myself, so please don’t think I’m anti-union, but the police unions in particular are rather notorious for protecting their own at all costs, and I think many police chiefs would rather reassign and reshuffle rather than confront the union, so your statistic, even if true and verifiable, may not mean quite as much as you think. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/346 "2020-06-15T05:57:56Z")
If [this](https://www.npr.org/2020/06/13/876522017/memphis-police-union-head-on-calls-for-reform) was the interview **DrDeath** was referring to(my searching couldn’t come up with any other), he didn’t say “about half the firings suggested , the Union didnt defend” or anything close to it, it wasn’t much of a grilling, and factchecking doesn’t seem to come up at all. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/347 "2020-06-15T07:10:58Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > How are they going to seize assets from me without armed backup? > > Forget the taxes then. What if I just decide I don’t want to pay for _anything_ anymore? I feel like upgrading my computer. Apple Store window, meet my friend the brick. I’ve always wanted a Rolex Milgauss. Man, those things are badass. Jewelry store window, meet brick. Ferrari dealership? I’m coming by with a car-hauler and helping myself to several Ferraris. Put all the GPS tracking devices you want in the things - hell, I’ll leave a note with my home address. Who are you going to call to come get me? > > You really don’t need a criminology degree to figure this one out. From my understanding in this thread, you will be counseled not to do this anymore. :smack: So what happens when you shoot the counselor who comes to your house? At some point someone with a gun will come to your house and make you stop. We can debate about when this will happen, but it ultimately means reform and not abolition. And as I have said, we already fucking give counseling to people that we think will benefit from it and lock up those people that are too far gone. This situation is rather simple. The police are too militarized and use force before it being appropriate or necessary. Let’s stop that thing in my last sentence. Get rid of this ridiculous notion that we are just going to counsel robbers, rapists and murderers. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/348 "2020-06-15T07:28:25Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Well, community accountability is a big part of it. You’ll likely have to face the people you work with, your victims’ families. Again, you may be removed from your job, especially if you worked with people who knew your wife or her lover. > > Also I think you both are underestimating how unlikely murderers are to reoffend and how much emotional trauma murderers suffer. It’s extremely hard to take a person’s life and those that do are often extremely emotionally destroyed. Most murders are not cold-blooded remorseless killers, those are extremely rare. And again we can figure out what to do with those on a case by case basis, including those who decide to keep bucking their accountability and, say, murder more people. > > Let’s help the vast majority of inmates and criminals **first** and worry about the worst of the worst as it comes up. > > As for the cycle of revenge, if it seems likely someone wants to take revenge, then the murderer will likely get some form of protection - being hidden, having guards (who were not directly hurt by the murder), etc. This is also part of why community accountability is victim-focused, we would consult the victim for what they need (within reason), and set them up with counseling and other help as well, specifically to prevent this. > > Yes, there are police negotiators, but many of the same techniques could be used with social workers, and people who aren’t given traumatizing training and power complexes. Not to mention prisons are extremely counter to any form of restorative justice. They force people into slave labor (literally), and are filled with issues like rape and power abuse. They’re unjust institutions full stop. > > Probation is an issue because there’s no such thing as “success” people, mostly people like drug offenders, are likely to make mistakes and slip up. That goes for murderers too who, while unlikely to commit murder again, may end up using drugs to cope, and then get put back in prison for “breaking probation” for an unrelated offense. We need to **care** for people through these problems, not threaten them with a stick. > > I have to question how innate this sense of fairness is because I don’t have it and never have. I’ve been sexually assaulted and abused. I don’t want those people to be punished, or suffer any retribution. I want them to be better people. The person who broke into my house when I was 11 and stole a lot of things? I want him to have what he needs to live comfortably, so he doesn’t need to pawn off peoples electronics and precious items to get what he needs. Or counselling if it was a power trip or thrill thing, so he can find ways to manage that without scaring and hurting people (emotionally, he didn’t do it while anyone was there). Not be thrown further into poverty by paying exorbitant fines or going to an institution that has a serious risk of abusing and traumatizing him. > > Yup, prison abolition is part of the package! You got it right! > > That’s not sarcasm I’m being legitimate. > > E: In fact that book I like to cite, Fumbling Towards Repair has a whole section on abolishing the PIC (Prison Industrial Complex), I’ll try to dig up some quotes. I know you mean well, but this is simply high minded ivory tower intellectualism. People have killed each other for millenia. This gives them a license to do it, even if some or many might regret it afterwards. You also overrate community stigma. You think those guys that committed the Rosewood massacre were stigmatized in their community? How about the people, including cops, who killed the three civil rights workers in MS? What if the cop that killed George Floyd makes bail and some black dude killed him? He would be a hero in his community. I do sympathize with the fact that you were a victim of a terrible crime and you have a very forgiving attitude towards the perpetrator. But that is exceptional. Most people want blood. And we have mostly been talking about murder. Without police, what is to stop, say, the neighbor from masturbating in his front yard when my daughter is waiting for the school bus? Counselors? Again, what if he tells them to piss off? What is my next step in this world without police? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/349 "2020-06-15T08:10:55Z")
(double post, 504 glitch) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/350 "2020-06-15T08:06:35Z")
To borrow the famous quote from _The Dark Knight,_ some criminals also simply cannot be reasoned with. They cannot be bought, bargained with or threatened. They just want to watch the world burn. Read Eliot Rodger’s manifesto, for instance. Without police in Isla Vista, how long would his killing spree have lasted? Simple: As long as he had ammo for his guns and fuel in his car (which he was using to run people over.) Without police intervention, that spree would have killed 600 people, not 6. Without police to intervene, how long would someone like Stephen Paddock had gone on killing in Vegas? Again, as long as he had ammo and human targets. Ditto for people like Adam Lanza, Cho Seung-Hui, Omar Mateen, etc. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/351 "2020-06-15T09:15:19Z")
In the last posts I will have to notice that both **UltraVires** and **Velocity** both missed that **Jragon** is not promoting that police should not be there. You are missing the point of harm reduction, were police is **still** there to deal with the worst when it shows up. Incidentally, besides affecting minorities and the poor, lots of police brutality incidents are also a result of the yet again insane war on drugs. Text article from Hannah LF Cooper, ScD. USA. Cooper is an Associate Professor in the Department of Behavioral Sciences and Health Education and in the Department of Epidemiology at Emory University’s Rollins School of Public Health. : > **[War on Drugs Policing and Police Brutality](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4800748/)** If having no time to read a cited paper, here is a short video from Kurgazat (In a nut shell): Why The War on Drugs Is a Huge Failure, with Harm Reduction as a big part of the solution: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/wJUXLqNHCaI/maxresdefault.jpg "Why The War on Drugs Is a Huge Failure") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJUXLqNHCaI) ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/352 "2020-06-15T12:28:44Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > From my understanding in this thread, you will be counseled not to do this anymore. :smack: So what happens when you shoot the counselor who comes to your house? I’d never do such a thing. I just wouldn’t let him into my house. :o Of course, he could then threaten to break _my_ window and let himself in. What am I going to do, call the…oh, yeah no. But I’m really not about hurting people. I’d probably just bribe him to go away by giving him a free Ferrari. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/353 "2020-06-15T12:47:34Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > In the last posts I will have to notice that both **UltraVires** and **Velocity** both missed that **Jragon** is not promoting that police should not be there. Police are in urgent and desperate need of reform. To do so, to re-train and hire more well trained law enforcement and adjunct counselors who will intervene peacefully with disturbed but not dangerous individuals, will require more money, not less. So “abolish/defund” is not only a poor label, it’s actually entirely misleading. Furthermore, no black leader I’ve heard to date (including an interview this morning with Stacey Abrams) is calling for an actual abolishing of police. Stacey specifically called for reform and fund re-allocation, including additional funding for supportive community services. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > You are missing the point of harm reduction, were police is **still** there to deal with the worst when it shows up. Incidentally, besides affecting minorities and the poor, lots of police brutality incidents are also a result of the yet again insane war on drugs. Police tend not to enforce laws they are not required to enforce. This is a matter of law reform by law makers. Police will not arrest people for drug offenses if they are no longer offenses. So let’s not blame the insanity of the war on drugs wholly on the police. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/354 "2020-06-15T12:49:30Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > To borrow the famous quote from _The Dark Knight,_ some criminals also simply cannot be reasoned with. They cannot be bought, bargained with or threatened. They just want to watch the world burn. > > Read Eliot Rodger’s manifesto, for instance. Without police in Isla Vista, how long would his killing spree have lasted? Simple: As long as he had ammo for his guns and fuel in his car (which he was using to run people over.) Without police intervention, that spree would have killed 600 people, not 6. > > Without police to intervene, how long would someone like Stephen Paddock had gone on killing in Vegas? Again, as long as he had ammo and human targets. > > Ditto for people like Adam Lanza, Cho Seung-Hui, Omar Mateen, etc. Again, “abolish the police” is a slogan - I think that’s pretty clear to most people. The question is whether or not we can disband an existing police force and rebrand it into something that is remarkably different. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/355 "2020-06-15T12:54:36Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Actually, to be less dramatic about it, what if I just decide I’m not going to pay taxes anymore. The IRS can send me all the letters it wants, I don’t give a damn. I’m not paying my taxes. Who’s going to ultimately come get me and hold me accountable? > > If I’VE got this idea, how many others have the same idea? Go ahead and abolish the police. Oh - the FBI aren’t the police? Like hell they aren’t - they’re armed, they’re dangerous, don’t cherry-pick the police you want to abolish, either you want to abolish the police or you don’t. Again, I think you’re completely misinterpreting and incidentally misrepresenting what “abolish the police” means. I agree with Quicksilver: put it on a bumper sticker and keep it there, but make the movement itself about something else, like police reform. But to be absolutely clear, yes, “reform” may in some situations mean temporarily disbanding a bad police department and rebuilding it from the ground up. I hope that this is a last resort, and that they use this as a last-resort ‘nuke’ option in situations where police unions refuse to change to meet reasonable demands. They should mostly use that option as leverage in getting police agencies and their unions to work with them as a partner in remaking police departments to be fairer and use more reasonable action. Call me old fashioned, but I think government agencies - particularly those that can strip you of your civil liberties - should be kept on a tight leash, and when they go too far, the people ought to have the means to use corrective action. Tolerating the abuse and mistreatment of anyone is a danger to us all. So is lowering the bar for permitting police misconduct. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/356 "2020-06-15T12:59:27Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Again, “abolish the police” is a slogan - I think that’s pretty clear to most people. The question is whether or not we can disband an existing police force and rebrand it into something that is remarkably different. A slogan, according to Stacey Abrams, which is not accurate and serves Trump’s agenda. Continue using it if you want, but know that insistence on its use runs counter to what black leaders and most advocates for change are actually calling for. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/357 "2020-06-15T13:07:33Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > A slogan, according to Stacey Abrams, which is not accurate and serves Trump’s agenda. > > Continue using it if you want, but know that insistence on its use runs counter to what black leaders and advocates for change are actually calling for. I’m not using it, but the fact that some people are doesn’t bother me and shouldn’t really bother anyone else, and I doubt that it’s going to be a serious game changer. We’re in the middle of an outrage. We’re in the middle of multiple outrages and people of all stripe are increasingly feeling like they’re getting a raw deal. My gut tells me that’s going to work a lot more against the idiot boy in the White House and his pathetic his altar boys that he keeps raping in the senate. These kinds of extreme sentiments are normal. I’m more worried about the burning of businesses and rioting in the face of every single case of police misconduct - that will get old pretty quick. That’s more of a concern than a few people shouting “abolish the police.” The best way to deal with all of this is for local governments to do what Trump and the GOP won’t: fix the problem at the local level. This, after all, is a _local_ problem but a local problem in many communities across the country. What matters is that local governments take action now. Take action, and watch Mango Mussolini type in all caps on Twitter. Abolishing and rebuilding the police Camden, NJ-style should be an option - a last option but an option nevertheless. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/358 "2020-06-15T13:44:47Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > So, what do you propose? Who is going to show up? What authority will they have? I’m serious. In a DV case where the husband is drunk and threatening and the wife calls 911 saying she is afraid, who gets dispatched? You want someone other than armed people with power of arrest and the legal authority to use force to handle the call? Details please. What other violent crimes should not be handled by the police? Admittedly, I don’t have these answers and would like to see them as well. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/359 "2020-06-15T13:54:19Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Police are in urgent and desperate need of reform. To do so, to re-train and hire more well trained law enforcement and adjunct counselors who will intervene peacefully with disturbed but not dangerous individuals, will require more money, not less. So “abolish/defund” is not only a poor label, it’s actually entirely misleading. Furthermore, no black leader I’ve heard to date (including an interview this morning with Stacey Abrams) is calling for an actual abolishing of police. Stacey specifically called for reform and fund re-allocation, including additional funding for supportive community services. That ok, as noted many, many times before, I’m not advocating complete abolition/defund either, please read what I posted before. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Police tend not to enforce laws they are not required to enforce. This is a matter of law reform by law makers. Police will not arrest people for drug offenses if they are no longer offenses. So let’s not blame the insanity of the war on drugs wholly on the police. And, that shows that you did not read or saw the cites. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/360 "2020-06-15T14:01:52Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Abolishing and rebuilding the police Camden, NJ-style should be an option - a last option but an option nevertheless. This keeps getting brought up and I want to make sure we all have the same understanding of what happened in Camden. According to the article that was shared up-thread, the municipality of Camden folded their badly run and badly funded police department into the larger, better run, county police department. Funding was increased. New police hired. Significant effort was made to re-instate community police presence in the town of Camden which previously had virtually no police presence. Crime was decreased by 40% as a result. When NJ’s governor decreased the funding, 50 cops were fired and crime rates went up. When funding was restored, police was rehired, more reforms were introduced and crime rates went down again. Which all goes to support the “Reform/Transform” not the extreme and radical feel good appeals of “Abolish”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=19)