# Abolish the police? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205 "2020-06-07T17:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/421 "2020-06-17T21:58:03Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > prove it How about, no. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/422 "2020-06-17T22:00:40Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > prove it No nation on earth exists without police. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/423 "2020-06-17T22:02:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No nation on earth exists without police. How how does this show us how a location would fare without them? ---
**Author:** ![Harrington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac8455/32.png) [@Harrington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harrington)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/424 "2020-06-17T22:03:42Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes, look at them. That’s what you get from the police. Thank you. I’m going to sleep comfortably, in the Yukon, in December, with the blanket you provided. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/425 "2020-06-17T22:09:17Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > We have changed laws, we have transformed police practices. > > We still have problems with police brutality. > > Police culture will change when you don’t have older cops training younger cops on police culture. It doesn’t change because a bureaucrat said so. When we know better, we do better. Let’s make better laws and implement better policies. You’re saying we can’t? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yeah, we already have that though. You don’t think that different neighborhoods are policed in very different ways right now? > > That if a cop sees Timmy selling drugs behind the clubhouse, he’ll take the drugs and threaten to tell Timmy’s parents. > > Then he sees Trayvon standing on the corner, shakes him down, and when he doesn’t find anything, plants Timmy’s drugs on him and arrests him. > > The only difference I see with my proposal is that the members of Trayvon’s community have a voice in how their neighborhood and the people within it are policed, as well as the affluent neighborhoods. > This relies on other police to report the police who refuse to obey the changes and regs. Yes. That happens and it’s bad. Let’s do better. There are bills being proposed that do just that. If they don’t go far enough, people should write their mayor, their police chief, their legislators and demand change. I think the protests worked in raising awareness so capitalize on it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/426 "2020-06-17T22:18:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How how does this show us how a location would fare without them? You cant figure that out? :dubious: What are your thoughts on this? Instead of asking pointless questions, share with us your thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Harrington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac8455/32.png) [@Harrington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harrington)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/427 "2020-06-17T22:20:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How how does this show us how a location would fare without them? If you’re strictly speaking U.S., it doesn’t. If you’re thinking broadly, Mogadishu (generally, Somalia, circa early 90s), current Sudan might be indicators. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/428 "2020-06-17T22:27:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You cant figure that out? :dubious: > > What are your thoughts on this? Instead of asking pointless questions, share with us your thoughts. My thoughts on the matter are that unless you can show us how a location without police fared in the past, there is no way to predict how a location without police would fare in the future, especially when factoring in other public and/or private social organizations. Remember, even the few that actually want the police to completely disappear are not opposed to other social organizations coming in and alleviating problems. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/429 "2020-06-17T22:34:18Z")
> [@Harrington](#): > > If you’re strictly speaking U.S., it doesn’t. If you’re thinking broadly, Mogadishu (generally, Somalia, circa early 90s), current Sudan might be indicators. I am speaking about the U.S., because the situation as it was in Somalia, and the situation as it stands now in Sudan didn’t/doesn’t factor in the various social programs that we have available here that would get even more funding redirected from the police. ---
**Author:** ![Harrington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac8455/32.png) [@Harrington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harrington)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/430 "2020-06-17T22:55:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > My thoughts on the matter are that unless you can show us how a location without police fared in the past, there is no way to predict how a location without police would fare in the future, especially when factoring in other public and/or private social organizations. Remember, even the few that actually want the police to completely disappear are not opposed to other social organizations coming in and alleviating problems. “Other social organizations…” but under what stricture? The Mafia in the early to mid 20th Century America was a social organization which had no official oversight, no public approval, and operated ad hoc without fear of legal consequences, often terrorized citizens for personal gain (even with police presence!). I don’t see what you’re describing, absent rule of law (i.e. police), is different from that. You give organizations control without rule of law, that is bad for everybody but that organization. You’re presuming that wholesome, righteous citizens will, absent rule of law, prevail. That is unproven. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/431 "2020-06-17T23:05:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How how does this show us how a location would fare without them? It doesn’t. But it’s fair to say that there are countries where police have a far better record than in the US so it tells us that things can be made better without resorting to outright abolishment of police presence in the community. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/432 "2020-06-17T23:21:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It doesn’t. But it’s fair to say that there are countries where police have a far better record than in the US so it tells us that things can be made better without resorting to outright abolishment of police presence in the community. Quite true…but, just as do not have applicable models of areas without police, I am unsure if we have an applicable models of areas that have gone from the system we have now to the superior(in my opinion) policing systems you have pointed out. If you can point out an example, and I sincerely hope you can, my opinion would probably change. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/433 "2020-06-17T23:23:07Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > From the cites i gave: [Indeed](http://www.justicepolicy.org/uploads/justicepolicy/documents/rethinkingtheblues_final.pdf): > [@](#): > > San Francisco: Due to budget cuts and a loss of grant money for certain drug enforcement operations, San Francisco has a smaller police force and allows > less overtime. At the same time, the police department made 39 percent fewer drug arrests in 2010 than the previous year and is on track to decline another 25 percent in 2011. > > During this time, violent crime fell 3 percent and was expected to fall another 6 percent in 2011. According to San Francisco Sheriff Michael Hennessey, they have seen a de facto decriminalization of drug offenses and “…it does not appear that violent crime in San Francisco has risen, so it may say something about the necessity for the war on drugs. Being mindful that violent crime rates were falling nationally and using critical thinking skills: a) Drug use fell dramatically coincidentally with reduction of police force b) Drug use fell dramatically because of reduction of police force c) Drug enforcement fell dramatically because of the reduction in police force ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/434 "2020-06-17T23:29:05Z")
> [@Harrington](#): > > . . .You give organizations control without rule of law, that is bad for everybody but that organization. Agreed. Who has said anything about giving control to organizations without oversight of rule of law. > [@Harrington](#): > > You’re presuming that wholesome, righteous citizens will, absent rule of law, prevail. That is unproven. Again (and again and again) noone is proposing abolishing rule of law. And, we are presuming nothing. We are offering a well thought out alternative to the current system, (that includes rules and laws) and you keep countering with unfounded, unproven personal paranoia. mc ---
**Author:** ![Harrington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac8455/32.png) [@Harrington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harrington)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/435 "2020-06-17T23:44:58Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Agreed. Who has said anything about giving control to organizations without oversight of rule of law. > > Again (and again and again) noone is proposing abolishing rule of law. And, we are presuming nothing. We are offering a well thought out alternative to the current system, (that includes rules and laws) and you keep countering with unfounded, unproven personal paranoia. > > mc You didn’t state explicitly, but if I understand you’re argument, and maybe I don’t, the thread topic is "Abolish the police? You seem to be arguing in favor of that, yet you say you’re not for abolishing the rule of law. Who, then, will enforce the rule of law? You? A group of your friends? I haven’t read the entire thread (it’s 9 pages long), so if you could summarize your plan, without police, in which rule of law is maintained, I’ll be the first to board your train. At this point, I’m standing on the platform, waiting… ---
**Author:** ![Harrington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac8455/32.png) [@Harrington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harrington)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/436 "2020-06-17T23:52:38Z")
Rule of Law is great, and necessary, but without a body to enforce it, it’s meaningless. Without police, what’s the plan? If I’m treading old ground here, I apologize. I don’t have the time to read through nine pages. Maybe someone could summarize? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/437 "2020-06-18T00:01:20Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > . . . > Being mindful that violent crime rates were falling nationally and using critical thinking skills: > a) Drug use fell dramatically coincidentally with reduction of police force > b) Drug use fell dramatically because of reduction of police force > c) Drug enforcement fell dramatically because of the reduction in police force That’s a good point. Fewer arrests doesnt necessarily mean less crime. Which is why the [Washington Post article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/07/25/does-more-policing-lead-to-less-crime-or-just-more-racial-resentment/) cited says this > [@](#): > > If more policing reduces crime, then we would expect less policing should lead to more crime. > > But in fact we find the opposite. Civilian complaints of major crimes — murder, rape, felony assault, burglary and grand larceny — actually declined during the slowdown. > > We focus on major criminal complaints for two reasons. First, because these acts so severely impact the victims’ lives, we have no reason to suspect that the reductions in foot patrols would prevent citizens from registering complaints with NYPD by, for instance, calling 911 or their local precinct. Second, the premise behind “broken windows” theory is to prevent precisely these types of major crimes by arresting people for relatively minor offenses. Yet when summonses and arrest rates plummet, we see no increase in major criminal complaints. > > Reducing police presence didn’t apparently lead to more crime — at least during this period. mc ---
**Author:** ![Harrington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac8455/32.png) [@Harrington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harrington)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2020, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/438 "2020-06-18T00:32:30Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > That’s a good point. Fewer arrests doesnt necessarily mean less crime. Which is why the [Washington Post article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/07/25/does-more-policing-lead-to-less-crime-or-just-more-racial-resentment/) cited says this > > If more policing reduces crime, then we would expect less policing should lead to more crime. > > > [@](#): > > > > But in fact we find the opposite. Civilian complaints of major crimes — murder, rape, felony assault, burglary and grand larceny — actually declined during the slowdown. > > > > We focus on major criminal complaints for two reasons. First, because these acts so severely impact the victims’ lives, we have no reason to suspect that the reductions in foot patrols would prevent citizens from registering complaints with NYPD by, for instance, calling 911 or their local precinct. Second, the premise behind “broken windows” theory is to prevent precisely these types of major crimes by arresting people for relatively minor offenses. Yet when summonses and arrest rates plummet, we see no increase in major criminal complaints. > > Reducing police presence didn’t apparently lead to more crime — at least during this period. > > mc But, as the thread topic makes clear, we’re not debating reduction in policing, we’re debating the abolition of policing (or police). That means no police, anywhere, anytime. If you call 911, if it still exists, you have to explain that you’re suffering a heart attack, not a thug breaking into your home. If a thug is breaking into your home, they’ll tell you good luck, let us know if you survive and need an ambulance. I know what you’re thinking, that police couldn’t help in that situation anyway, as immediate as it is. But there are many scenarios in which the police could help in emergent circumstances. Someone is breaking into my home. Alright, sending a unit. Perp hears sirens and runs. What is the perp going to hear without police? That’s right, Second Amendment, Old West, Yee Haw! We give part of our income to police for a reason. Or maybe the police get there before the perp can break into your home. I know we need better measures to control police, and I wish police would be more thoughtful in their actions, but abolishing police is an answer that people don’t even know the question to. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2020, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/439 "2020-06-18T01:17:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > [Indeed](http://www.justicepolicy.org/uploads/justicepolicy/documents/rethinkingtheblues_final.pdf): > > Being mindful that violent crime rates were falling nationally and using critical thinking skills: > a) Drug use fell dramatically coincidentally with reduction of police force > b) Drug use fell dramatically because of reduction of police force > c) Drug enforcement fell dramatically because of the reduction in police force Missing in action, d) what was pointed before: that the war on drugs does prevent further reductions on the number of violent crimes. And it leads to more police justifications to resort to violence from the police. > **[The Economics Behind the U.S. Government's Unwinnable War on Drugs - Econlib](https://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2013/Powelldrugs.html)** > > “One other major cost of the drug war is the loss of liberty.” The late Nobel Laureate James Buchanan was known to say, “Economics puts limits on people’s utopias.” Unfortunately, the advocates of the U.S. government’s war on drugs have failed to... > [@](#): > > Economist Jeffery Miron found that both alcohol prohibition and drug prohibition enforcement efforts have increased the homicide rate in the United States. He estimates that the homicide rate is 25-75 percent higher due to prohibition.13 In short, the violence associated with drugs, both by users to support their habit and by gangs supplying the drugs, is a product of prohibition rather than a rationale for prohibition. > > These costs, taken together with the above supply and demand analysis, indicate that the very concerns that animate drug prohibitionists—the harm to users and the violence in society—should cause them to oppose drug prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2020, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/440 "2020-06-18T01:23:44Z")
> [@Harrington](#): > > But, as the thread topic makes clear, we’re not debating reduction in policing, we’re debating the abolition of policing (or police). That means no police, anywhere, anytime. That actually means that you did not read the tread. Some radicals do, but it is clear that they will not get everything they want, what is important is to realize that preventing any progress regarding police brutality is actually the item that should worry conservatives and republicans as it is losing more independents and moderates by resorting to wide brush accusations and argumentum ad absurdum lines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=23)