# Abolish the police? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205 "2020-06-07T17:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/41 "2020-06-07T23:07:50Z")
No, the idea of abolishing the police makes no sense. It’s something that I see being disseminated on a large scale on FB and I’m guessing that it’s largely driven by outrage and emotion overriding reason. I get that people get outraged and let that happen sometimes, it’s a part of being human, I don’t think these people calling for it are all morons or something, but I also think that deep down most of them are not serious about abolishing the police. 99% of the people advocating it would in fact call the police if they were threatened in some way. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/42 "2020-06-07T23:28:18Z")
[Minneapolis city council members intend to defund and dismantle police department](https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/george-floyd-protests-sunday/index.html) “Nine members of the Minneapolis City Council on Sunday announced they intend to defund and dismantle the city’s police department following the police killing of George Floyd. Council President Lisa Bender told CNN that with the nine votes the city council members would have a veto-proof majority of the council’s 13 members.” ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/43 "2020-06-07T23:35:31Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > [Minneapolis city council members intend to defund and dismantle police department](https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/george-floyd-protests-sunday/index.html) > > “Nine members of the Minneapolis City Council on Sunday announced they intend to defund and dismantle the city’s police department following the police killing of George Floyd. Council President Lisa Bender told CNN that with the nine votes the city council members would have a veto-proof majority of the council’s 13 members.” Listening to those council members is like listening to Donald Trump: We are going to get rid of the police department and replace it with a wonderful, tremendous system. You will never feel safer, believe me. We will have the most talented people working on the new system which will just be great, you can trust me on that. As I said before, I don’t like the modern idea of what is basically a standing army, called a police force, in times of peace. But you have to come up with something better to replace it. You can’t just say we have a veto-proof majority so we are going to roll with it in the hopes that it doesn’t bite you in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/44 "2020-06-07T23:38:46Z")
We clearly need a change. I don’t buy the argument that the change will be worse than the current situation. The problems with the police in this country have been built into the system over many years and time and again I’ve heard about reforms and change, and there is rarely an improvement. It’s bad enough now that the reasonable course of action is to wipe the slate clean and start over. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/45 "2020-06-07T23:42:49Z")
Here’s an example of successful “abolish the police”: [https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/](https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/) In 2013, the Camden NJ PD was disbanded and restructured from the ground up, and then “born again as the Camden County Police Department, with fewer officers, lower pay—and a strategic shift toward “community policing.” The result? 2018 had the lowest murder rate since 1987. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/46 "2020-06-07T23:43:52Z")
Here’s an example of successful “abolish the police”: [https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/](https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/) In 2013, the Camden NJ PD was disbanded and restructured from the ground up, and then “born again as the Camden County Police Department, with fewer officers, lower pay—and a strategic shift toward “community policing.” The result? 2018 had the lowest murder rate since 1987. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/47 "2020-06-07T23:44:04Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > We clearly need a change. I don’t buy the argument that the change will be worse than the current situation. The problems with the police in this country have been built into the system over many years and time and again I’ve heard about reforms and change, and there is rarely an improvement. It’s bad enough now that the reasonable course of action is to wipe the slate clean and start over. I don’t disagree that there needs to be massive change, but you must have some sort of idea of what would replace the police, right? You just support the unknown versus the known? Respectfully, that is not a good or responsible governing position. Do you have some general ideas of what law and order would look like? Are we talking about ALL police? I mean, no more state police, municipal police and sheriffs? Nothing at all? What would your version, in general terms, look like in the George Floyd situation where (whoever) gets a call that someone passed a counterfeit $20 bill? I mean, clearly we say no knee to the neck, but how does the encounter work under the new system, just in broad strokes? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/48 "2020-06-07T23:49:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Here’s an example of successful “abolish the police”: > > [Bloomberg - Are you a robot?](https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/) > > In 2013, the Camden NJ PD was disbanded and restructured from the ground up, and then “born again as the Camden County Police Department, with fewer officers, lower pay—and a strategic shift toward “community policing.” > > The result? 2018 had the lowest murder rate since 1987. That seems like police reform instead of “abolishing the police.” I mean, the new group even has “police” in its name. I’m all for community policing. It should never have gone away. Everyone knew “Officer Bob” (or whatever his name was). So how is community policing any different than Andy Taylor, though? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/49 "2020-06-07T23:55:49Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Well, the OP addressed that. The protestor said that yes, abolition is what he meant by defunding, and the crowd of protestors agreed. > > I take your point that it could have some obscure meaning, but I’ve never heard any explanation of what that means. A [_Washington Post_ opinion piece](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/07/defund-police-heres-what-that-really-means/) (from today, actually): > [@](#): > > **Defund the police? Here’s what that really means.** > > Since George Floyd’s death, a long-simmering movement for police abolition has become part of the national conversation, recast slightly as a call to “defund the police.”… > > Be not afraid. “Defunding the police” is not as scary (or even as radical) as it sounds… > > Defunding and abolition probably mean something different from what you are thinking. For most proponents, “defunding the police” does not mean zeroing out budgets for public safety, and police abolition does not mean that police will disappear overnight — or perhaps ever. Defunding the police means shrinking the scope of police responsibilities and shifting most of what government does to keep us safe to entities that are better equipped to meet that need. It means investing more in mental-health care and housing, and expanding the use of community mediation and violence interruption programs. Again, the talk of “Defunding the police”–let alone “abolition”–seems to me to be deeply counter-productive. And Camden, New Jersey, still has a police department. It may be all shiny and new–or at least completely re-structured–but the state has not withered away in Camden. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/50 "2020-06-08T00:01:44Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I don’t disagree that there needs to be massive change, but you must have some sort of idea of what would replace the police, right? You just support the unknown versus the known? Respectfully, that is not a good or responsible governing position. Supporting a failed system that has defied improvement time and again is not a responsible governing position. > [@](#): > > Do you have some general ideas of what law and order would look like? Are we talking about ALL police? I mean, no more state police, municipal police and sheriffs? Nothing at all? I have a general idea what law and order looks like now and how ineffective the police are in changing that situation. I don’t see a need to change anything where police departments are working and adequately designed to meet real needs instead of promoting fear to keep themselves employed. > [@](#): > > What would your version, in general terms, look like in the George Floyd situation where (whoever) gets a call that someone passed a counterfeit $20 bill? I mean, clearly we say no knee to the neck, but how does the encounter work under the new system, just in broad strokes? Well, that one is easy. If someone is suspected of passing a counterfeit $20 bill you call the treasury department. If you have the person’s identity you can provide that. Why on earth was George Floyd stopped and arrested? People don’t get arrested or prosecuted for passing counterfeit bills unless there’s proof they knew the bills were counterfeit. Unless they have the wrong color skin. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/51 "2020-06-08T00:03:13Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I don’t disagree that there needs to be massive change, but you must have some sort of idea of what would replace the police, right? You just support the unknown versus the known? Respectfully, that is not a good or responsible governing position. Supporting a failed system that has defied improvement time and again is not a responsible governing position. > [@](#): > > Do you have some general ideas of what law and order would look like? Are we talking about ALL police? I mean, no more state police, municipal police and sheriffs? Nothing at all? I have a general idea what law and order looks like now and how ineffective the police are in changing that situation. I don’t see a need to change anything where police departments are working and adequately designed to meet real needs instead of promoting fear to keep themselves employed. > [@](#): > > What would your version, in general terms, look like in the George Floyd situation where (whoever) gets a call that someone passed a counterfeit $20 bill? I mean, clearly we say no knee to the neck, but how does the encounter work under the new system, just in broad strokes? Well, that one is easy. If someone is suspected of passing a counterfeit $20 bill you call the treasury department. If you have the person’s identity you can provide that. Why on earth was George Floyd stopped and arrested? People don’t get arrested or prosecuted for passing counterfeit bills unless there’s proof they knew the bills were counterfeit. Unless they have the wrong color skin. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/52 "2020-06-08T00:18:58Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Again, the talk of “Defunding the police”–let alone “abolition”–seems to me to be deeply counter-productive. > And Camden, New Jersey, still has a police department. It may be all shiny and new–or at least completely re-structured–but the state has not withered away in Camden. It’s not so much counter productive as false. If “defunding” and “abolition” mean simply changing some things around, then it is not those two things at all. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Well, that one is easy. If someone is suspected of passing a counterfeit $20 bill you call the treasury department. If you have the person’s identity you can provide that. Why on earth was George Floyd stopped and arrested? People don’t get arrested or prosecuted for passing counterfeit bills unless there’s proof they knew the bills were counterfeit. Unless they have the wrong color skin. I can almost agree with your first two points, but not this one. The police should go get evidence and see what happened. You’re talking about a prohibition on investigation. What would the Treasury Department do? Send their police out to investigate days later? Then you have the same situation, police (of some form) asking George Floyd about the counterfeit bills. Why not the local police? I don’t know what was said on those tapes when the police approached, but they had every right to be there asking questions. Everyone has the right to ask questions of another person and to forbid the police, or whatever their replacements are called, from doing the same is just an invitation to crime. Why not try to pass a counterfeit bill if you know the police won’t come? Best case you get away with it. Worse case you go home to try another day. That is just advocating lawlessness. In my relatively short law career I have represented about five people who have been charged with passing counterfeit bills, all white people, who were arrested when the police showed up asking questions about where they got the bill, told bullshit and contradictory stories, and allowed the police to search their car where the police found a pile of counterfeit bills with the same serial number. Had they exercised their right to remain silent or told a plausible story of how they got it in change from somewhere else, then they would have been off the hook for the reasons you said. It’s astounding that because a handful of cops are bad apples we should ban all criminal investigation. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/53 "2020-06-08T00:28:09Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I can almost agree with your first two points, but not this one. The police should go get evidence and see what happened. You’re talking about a prohibition on investigation. What would the Treasury Department do? Send their police out to investigate days later? Then you have the same situation, police (of some form) asking George Floyd about the counterfeit bills. Why not the local police? First, when it comes to counterfeiting currency the only thing the police should do is what the feds have specifically asked them to do. If that includes pulling people over in their cars and arresting for the mere suspicion of passing a counterfeit bill then please provide a cite. I’m sure the treasury department can follow up as they always do when there is actual evidence of a counterfeiter. I suspect they mostly ignore whatever local police tell them unless it’s self serving. I certainly hope you don’t unintentionally pass a counterfeit bill and get treated the way you suggest. Do you have any idea how many hands counterfeit bills get passed through? When should we start the nationwide manhunt for anyone who ever touched a counterfeit bill? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/54 "2020-06-08T00:29:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **UltraVires** : > > What? They are complaining that police are not available when 911 is called? What does that have to do with George Floyd? No, they don’t dare call 911 in the first place, because they’ve learned from hard experience that the police getting involved just makes things worse, not better. And yes, the officer who murdered Floyd has himself been arrested. And just in the time since he’s been arrested, the police have been filmed slashing car tires and gassing churches, they’ve been documented to have let white terrorists go free after bringing bombs to the protests, and they’re credibly rumored to be collaborating with terrorist groups, and to have even started the rioting in the first place. Justice hasn’t been done yet, not by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/55 "2020-06-08T00:32:11Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > It’s astounding that because a handful of cops are bad apples we should ban all criminal investigation. Do you know what ‘bad apples’ are? They are the kind that spoil the bunch. So even though all the cops are bad now, you want to let them go on? At least use an aphorism that supports your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/56 "2020-06-08T00:34:25Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > It’s astounding that because a handful of cops are bad apples we should ban all criminal investigation. Exactly! Since “a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch,” the whole spoiled, rotten bunch needs to be tossed out! Glad we agree! (And since I was ninja’ed, I’ll just briefly address a previous post of yours, because the topic is a bit of a hijack…) > [@UltraVires](#): > > That’s fair, but I read the essay to be pretty clear. Larger populations with larger incidents of crime could not be policed by Andy and Barney and more organization and more men were needed. I think the point being argued on the topic of the police’s “origins” is, how did Andy and Barney’s position and authority come about, and what were their duties, actions, and expectations, historically? That is where the connection to slavery could come from, and that’s why I was disappointed in the Snopes article as a source: I didn’t see any attempt to address this, and it seems to be the basic point. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/57 "2020-06-08T00:47:02Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > First, when it comes to counterfeiting currency the only thing the police should do is what the feds have specifically asked them to do. If that includes pulling people over in their cars and arresting for the mere suspicion of passing a counterfeit bill then please provide a cite. > > I’m sure the treasury department can follow up as they always do when there is actual evidence of a counterfeiter. I suspect they mostly ignore whatever local police tell them unless it’s self serving. I certainly hope you don’t unintentionally pass a counterfeit bill and get treated the way you suggest. Do you have any idea how many hands counterfeit bills get passed through? When should we start the nationwide manhunt for anyone who ever touched a counterfeit bill? Are you under the impression that it is only a federal crime to pass counterfeit currency? It is against state law as well. But again, why would it be different once the Treasury Department sends its own police to question George Floyd? And neither of us know what was said during the conversation. If they had no probable cause that Floyd knew the bill was counterfeit then the arrest was bad at the outset. Nothing I said changed that. Police around here even know that unknowingly passing a counterfeit bill is not enough for an arrest…that is why they investigate and question. But we aren’t talking about whether he should have been arrested, you are making the rather extraordinary argument that they shouldn’t even investigate. > [@Chronos](#): > > No, they don’t dare call 911 in the first place, because they’ve learned from hard experience that the police getting involved just makes things worse, not better. > > And yes, the officer who murdered Floyd has himself been arrested. And just in the time since he’s been arrested, the police have been filmed slashing car tires and gassing churches, they’ve been documented to have let white terrorists go free after bringing bombs to the protests, and they’re credibly rumored to be collaborating with terrorist groups, and to have even started the rioting in the first place. Justice hasn’t been done yet, not by a long shot. I can tell you as an upper middle class white man that calling 911 generally makes things worse and not better. I’ve seen it. That is not the result of police officers, it is the result of laws that the people demand to be passed. An abused woman wants to call the police on her abuser? Sure, oh but she did smack him earlier in the night when she found him cheating and she will be honest and admit that. Welp, she goes to jail; not the call of the officer on the scene, he must arrest her because of the Joe Biden passed Violence Against Women Act. I routinely advise my clients that unless: 1) the law requires you to make an emergency report to the police, or 2) you believe that you will suffer serious death or bodily injury unless you call 911, then don’t ever call 911. And again, these are mostly white people I deal with (WV being only 3% black). So yeah, let’s look at all of this stuff, don’t leave out poor and lower class whites from the discussion and recognize the part that laws have played in mandatory police actions. As I said, libertarian leaning conservatives and BLM have a lot in common here if it wasn’t put forward as simply a racial thing and bringing up unrelated stuff (like the Lee statue in Richmond) in the mix. There is almost 100% agreement on this issue except for the violent protests, the blaming of whites, and not placing the blame on the ridiculous amount of non-flexible laws which regulate Americans today. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/58 "2020-06-08T00:51:04Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Exactly! Since “a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch,” the whole spoiled, rotten bunch needs to be tossed out! Glad we agree! > > (And since I was ninja’ed, I’ll just briefly address a previous post of yours, because the topic is a bit of a hijack…) > > I think the point being argued on the topic of the police’s “origins” is, how did Andy and Barney’s position and authority come about, and what were their duties, actions, and expectations, historically? That is where the connection to slavery could come from, and that’s why I was disappointed in the Snopes article as a source: I didn’t see any attempt to address this, and it seems to be the basic point. 1. Ridiculous. Every profession and organization has “bad apples.” Although it was nice for you to score some points with the analogy, it is off base. Name an organization that shouldn’t be abolished under your “one bad apple spoils the whole bunch” therefore let’s start from scratch argument. 2. Andy was a sheriff and Barney was a deputy. Those positions existed in ye olde England and existed for hundreds of years prior to slavery before they were transported here. So for them to have any connection to slavery, the common law judges must have been time travelers who transported back in time the thought of a need for someone to control slaves. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/59 "2020-06-08T00:57:54Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Are you under the impression that it is only a federal crime to pass counterfeit currency? It is against state law as well. But again, why would it be different once the Treasury Department sends its own police to question George Floyd? > > And neither of us know what was said during the conversation. If they had no probable cause that Floyd knew the bill was counterfeit then the arrest was bad at the outset. Nothing I said changed that. Police around here even know that unknowingly passing a counterfeit bill is not enough for an arrest…that is why they investigate and question. > > But we aren’t talking about whether he should have been arrested, you are making the rather extraordinary argument that they shouldn’t even investigate. > > I can tell you as an upper middle class white man that calling 911 generally makes things worse and not better. I’ve seen it. That is not the result of police officers, it is the result of laws that the people demand to be passed. > > An abused woman wants to call the police on her abuser? Sure, oh but she did smack him earlier in the night when she found him cheating and she will be honest and admit that. Welp, she goes to jail; not the call of the officer on the scene, he must arrest her because of the **Joe Biden passed Violence Against Women Act**. > > I routinely advise my clients that unless: 1) the law requires you to make an emergency report to the police, or 2) you believe that you will suffer serious death or bodily injury unless you call 911, then don’t ever call 911. > > And again, these are mostly white people I deal with (WV being only 3% black). So yeah, let’s look at all of this stuff, don’t leave out poor and lower class whites from the discussion and recognize the part that laws have played in mandatory police actions. > > As I said, libertarian leaning conservatives and BLM have a lot in common here if it wasn’t put forward as simply a racial thing and bringing up unrelated stuff (like the Lee statue in Richmond) in the mix. > > There is almost 100% agreement on this issue except for the violent protests, the blaming of whites, and not placing the blame on the ridiculous amount of non-flexible laws which regulate Americans today. Actually sponsored by Biden and Orrin Hatch who just happens to be a Republican. Passed by both House and Senate and signed by Clinton. Good job blaming the current Democratic Candidate for the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/60 "2020-06-08T01:03:11Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Are you under the impression that it is only a federal crime to pass counterfeit currency? It is against state law as well. But again, why would it be different once the Treasury Department sends its own police to question George Floyd? Cops on the beat are not qualified to investigate a case of passing a counterfeit bill. Whoever is qualified is likely to realize that they want to get the person to answer questions, not kill them. If not then we need to get rid of them too. > [@](#): > > And neither of us know what was said during the conversation. If they had no probable cause that Floyd knew the bill was counterfeit then the arrest was bad at the outset. Nothing I said changed that. Police around here even know that unknowingly passing a counterfeit bill is not enough for an arrest…that is why they investigate and question. They identified the car. Perhaps they knew he was already. Assuming there actually was a crime committed and that had been properly determined by qualified people, them all that was needed was to identify George Floyd. Please explain how that resulted in his death? > [@](#): > > But we aren’t talking about whether he should have been arrested, you are making the rather extraordinary argument that they shouldn’t even investigate. The only investigation those cop should have done was to determine his identity. And to do that politely because they had not witnessed a crime taking place and no warrant had been issued. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=4)