# Abolish the police? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205 "2020-06-07T17:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/61 "2020-06-08T01:11:19Z")
Another vote for reforming the police not abolishing them. Does anyone believe that white people would stop killing black people if the police didn’t exist? A police uniform may give some people an excuse to commit crimes but those people would still exist and still have the desire to commit crimes in a world where there were no police. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/62 "2020-06-08T01:16:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Does anyone believe that white people would stop killing black people if the police didn’t exist? A police uniform may give some people an excuse to commit crimes but those people would still exist and still have the desire to commit crimes in a world where there were no police. I think the point is it’s MUCH worse to have those racist criminals be officially shielded agents of the state. At least as “free agents,” they wouldn’t be directly involved in perpetuating any larger oppressive power structure that would allow their abuses to continue unto generations or spread. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/63 "2020-06-08T01:17:49Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Every profession and organization has “bad apples.” Although it was nice for you to score some points with the analogy, it is off base. Name an organization that shouldn’t be abolished under your “one bad apple spoils the whole bunch” therefore let’s start from scratch argument. It’s true that every organization has some bad apples. Now the critical question: how does the organization handle those bad apples? Does it work to remove them from the organization and hold them accountable for any acts they committed? Or does the organization seek to protect its members, including the bad apples? If it’s the latter then fault and responsibility can be laid on the entire organization not just on the individual members. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/64 "2020-06-08T02:27:51Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Supporting a failed system that has defied improvement time and again is not a responsible governing position. > … > Well, that one is easy. If someone is suspected of passing a counterfeit $20 bill you call the treasury department. If you have the person’s identity you can provide that. Why on earth was George Floyd stopped and arrested? People don’t get arrested or prosecuted for passing counterfeit bills unless there’s proof they knew the bills were counterfeit. Unless they have the wrong color skin. The police- which are in every nation on earth- are hardly a “failed system”. There are over 20 million cops wordwide. (The number of officers per nation more or less goes by population size). Having been a Treasury Agent- altho counterfeit money wasnt my thing- They dont really care about a single bad 20. They'd ask you to take it out of circulation, and mail it in with the locations. That is just in case there happens then to be a bunch of them showing up, all from the same counterfeiter in the same area. It is JUST possible that the Treasury had asked the Police to be on the look-out for such . But no need for a arrest- you just ask the person where they got it from, take down a little statement, warn and counsel them (if they are a merchant, you thank them, instead for turning it in), etc. So, we know Chauvin was a bad cop. They happen. They are rare, but in a nation with 900K police you cant help but get some bad apples. What is surprising is that after all his complaints he was still out in the field- and worse- as a training officer. That is simply bad judgement. Now, it isnt simply the raw number of complaints necessarily- a long career by a righteous officer might have that number, but two were upheld. A complaint a year is rather high and two closed by reprimand? Neither was for excessive force, but both indicated a anger management issue. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/65 "2020-06-08T02:33:20Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Are you under the impression that it is only a federal crime to pass counterfeit currency? It is against state law as well. But again, why would it be different once the Treasury Department sends its own police to question George Floyd? > > And neither of us know what was said during the conversation. If they had no probable cause that Floyd knew the bill was counterfeit then the arrest was bad at the outset. Nothing I said changed that. Police around here even know that unknowingly passing a counterfeit bill is not enough for an arrest…that is why they investigate and question. > … Not for a single bad $20. It is to laugh. Yes, and we dont know what Floyd said. If he had said he didnt know, then all that should have been done is ask him if he remembered where he got it, take a statement, and send it in. But maybe he started giving them a bad time, calling them names, refusing to hand over the bill, etc. Still, it hardly calls for a felony type stop. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/66 "2020-06-08T02:34:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The police- which are in every nation on earth- are hardly a “failed system”. There are over 20 million cops wordwide. (The number of officers per nation more or less goes by population size). The police department in Minneapolis is a failed system. I don’t see the need to abolish any police department which is successfully filling the actual law enforcement needs of their jurisdiction, but there are a lot of them that do not. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/67 "2020-06-08T02:38:15Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Cops on the beat are not qualified to investigate a case of passing a counterfeit bill. Whoever is qualified is likely to realize that they want to get the person to answer questions, not kill them. If not then we need to get rid of them too. > > They identified the car. Perhaps they knew he was already. Assuming there actually was a crime committed and that had been properly determined by qualified people, them all that was needed was to identify George Floyd. Please explain how that resulted in his death? > > The only investigation those cop should have done was to determine his identity. And to do that politely because they had not witnessed a crime taking place and no warrant had been issued. 1 & 2) All you are saying is that need to investigate it in a way where nobody is killed. Nobody disagrees with that. 1. Yes they did have a right to arrest him: > [@](#): > > 29.34 WHEN ARREST MAY BE MADE WITHOUT WARRANT. > §Subdivision 1.Peace officers. (a) A peace officer, as defined in section 626.84, subdivision 1, paragraph (c), who is on or off duty within the jurisdiction of the appointing authority, or on duty outside the jurisdiction of the appointing authority pursuant to section 629.40, may arrest a person without a warrant as provided under paragraph (c). > > (c) A peace officer or part-time peace officer who is authorized under paragraph (a) or (b) to make an arrest without a warrant may do so under the following circumstances: > > (2) when the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the officer’s presence; > > (3) when a felony has in fact been committed, and the officer has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it; What is a felony under Minnesota law? > [@](#): > > 609.02 DEFINITIONS. > Subdivision 1.Crime. “Crime” means conduct which is prohibited by statute and for which the actor may be sentenced to imprisonment, with or without a fine. > §Subd. 2.Felony. “Felony” means a crime for which a sentence of imprisonment for more than one year may be imposed. What was he charged with? > [@](#): > > 609.625 AGGRAVATED FORGERY. > §Subdivision 1.Making or altering writing or object. Whoever, with intent to defraud, falsely makes or alters a writing or object of any of the following kinds so that it purports to have been made by another or by the maker or alterer under an assumed or fictitious name, or at another time, or with different provisions, or by authority of one who did not give such authority, is guilty of aggravated forgery and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both: > > (1) a writing or object whereby, when genuine, legal rights, privileges, or obligations are created, terminated, transferred, or evidenced, or any writing normally relied upon as evidence of debt or property rights, other than a check as defined in section 609.631 or a financial transaction card as defined in section 609.821; or > > (7) the records or accounts of a bank or person, with whom funds of the state or any of its agencies or subdivisions are deposited or entrusted, relating to such funds. > > Subd. 3.Uttering or possessing. Whoever, with intent to defraud, utters or possesses with intent to utter any forged writing or object mentioned in subdivision 1, not including a check as defined in section 609.631 or a financial transaction card as defined in section 609.821, knowing it to have been so forged, may be sentenced as provided in subdivision 1. They had the right to arrest him. I don’t know why you wouldn’t want police arresting guys in your neighborhood for doing that. If he is innocent, he gets bail and his day in court. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/68 "2020-06-08T02:41:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not for a single bad $20. It is to laugh. > > Yes, and we dont know what Floyd said. If he had said he didnt know, then all that should have been done is ask him if he remembered where he got it, take a statement, and send it in. But maybe he started giving them a bad time, calling them names, refusing to hand over the bill, etc. Still, it hardly calls for a felony type stop. Remember, though. The convenience store clerk said he was really impaired and trying to drive off. Police shouldn’t come for that? And he did resist them. Now, (and I feel the need for some reason to keep repeating this disclaimer on this board) that was not a reason for him to die or for them to put a knee on his neck. But to say that the police shouldn’t even have been there is ridiculous. Of course you investigate forgery and counterfeit currency. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/69 "2020-06-08T02:42:21Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > A… > > An abused woman wants to call the police on her abuser? Sure, oh but she did smack him earlier in the night when she found him cheating and she will be honest and admit that. Welp, she goes to jail; not the call of the officer on the scene, he must arrest her because of the Joe Biden passed Violence Against Women Act… It currently isn’t law if Wiki is correct:\*As a result of the United States federal government shutdown of 2018–2019, the Violence Against Women Act expired on December 21, 2018.[38] It was temporarily reauthorized by a short-term spending bill on January 25, 2019, but expired again on February 15, 2019.[39] On April 4, 2019, the reauthorization act passed in the House by a vote of 263-158, this time including closing the boyfriend loophole. All Democrats voting joined by 33 Republicans voted for passage. New York Representative Elise Stefanik said Democrats, “…have refused to work with Republicans in a meaningful way,” adding, the House bill will do nothing but “collect dust” in the GOP-controlled Senate.The bill has indeed been ignored by the Senate.[40] On December 9, 2019, following the firearm murder of a Houston police officer on duty by a boyfriend who had been abusive towards his girlfriend, Houston Police Chief Art Acevedo criticized Senators Mitch McConnell (R-KY), Ted Cruz (R-TX) and John Cornyn (R-TX) for preventing a vote on the VAWA reauthorization\* and it goes on the say that coverage for male victims is dubious. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/70 "2020-06-08T02:53:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It currently isn’t law if Wiki is correct:\*As a result of the United States federal government shutdown of 2018–2019, the Violence Against Women Act expired on December 21, 2018.[38] It was temporarily reauthorized by a short-term spending bill on January 25, 2019, but expired again on February 15, 2019.[39] > > On April 4, 2019, the reauthorization act passed in the House by a vote of 263-158, this time including closing the boyfriend loophole. All Democrats voting joined by 33 Republicans voted for passage. New York Representative Elise Stefanik said Democrats, “…have refused to work with Republicans in a meaningful way,” adding, the House bill will do nothing but “collect dust” in the GOP-controlled Senate.The bill has indeed been ignored by the Senate.[40] > > On December 9, 2019, following the firearm murder of a Houston police officer on duty by a boyfriend who had been abusive towards his girlfriend, Houston Police Chief Art Acevedo criticized Senators Mitch McConnell (R-KY), Ted Cruz (R-TX) and John Cornyn (R-TX) for preventing a vote on the VAWA reauthorization\* > > and it goes on the say that coverage for male victims is dubious. Two points: 1. Good. I hope it dies a permanent death. Like most laws it was a well intentioned but empty headed intervention into state criminal law that was vastly expansive for its purpose. I’ve had many cases where father and grown son square off in the back yard and get roped in under its harsh consequences. Prosecutors even agree with me that such is mutual affray under the common law and not a battery by either party, yet they get grants under the VAWA which requires that they take it to the jury box unless it will be “almost certainly” dismissed on a directed verdict. Most offices have at least two prosecutors that rely on this grant money for salaries. I can get almost anything dismissed with a reasonable story, but not DV…too politically charged and mandated by the grant money that they need. 1. No law in the United States under current Supreme Court jurisprudence could be for female victims only. And the VAWA doesn’t purport to limit itself to female victims. The title is just a descriptive title. All provisions go to all domestic violence. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/71 "2020-06-08T02:58:58Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > What was he charged with? > > They had the right to arrest him. I don’t know why you wouldn’t want police arresting guys in your neighborhood for doing that. If he is innocent, he gets bail and his day in court. I haven’t even heard of evidence that he in anyway altered or counterfeited a bill pr intended even to possess one. Have you? Nobody in those circumstances is legitimately arrested or prosecuted. You wouldn’t want to be arrested for an unverified accusation that you passed a phony bill, and you certainly wouldn’t want to be killed for it. So just what are you trying to defend here? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/72 "2020-06-08T03:29:49Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I haven’t even heard of evidence that he in anyway altered or counterfeited a bill pr intended even to possess one. Have you? Nobody in those circumstances is legitimately arrested or prosecuted. You wouldn’t want to be arrested for an unverified accusation that you passed a phony bill, and you certainly wouldn’t want to be killed for it. So just what are you trying to defend here? I’m defending their right to investigate both the allegation of passing counterfeit and forged currency a.k.a. bank notes, and an allegation that Floyd was intoxicated and attempting to drive away. Again, and yet again, he did not deserve to be killed for it. I don’t want to be arrested for any reason and certainly not unjustly arrested, but I wouldn’t think it unreasonable if a cop started asking me questions about where I got the counterfeit bill, especially if I was impaired and attempting to drive off. As I said before, maybe they didn’t have enough evidence even for probable cause of the “knowing” aspect of passing off the fake money. If they didn’t, the arrest was bad, but in no way was the investigation improper. I mean, were these cops supposed to say ah fuck it and let him drive off? What if he ran over three kids because of his impaired state? Then another group would have wanted their ass for not investigating. You keep bringing up the death, which we both agree was terribly improper. But you keep disputing the investigation which was unquestionably proper. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/73 "2020-06-08T04:30:44Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I think the point is it’s MUCH worse to have those racist criminals be officially shielded agents of the state. At least as “free agents,” they wouldn’t be directly involved in perpetuating any larger oppressive power structure that would allow their abuses to continue unto generations or spread. I disagree. I don’t see how it makes much of a difference to a guy being murdered if it’s by the police or by a lynch mob. Lynch mobs are every bit as capable of perpetuating a larger oppressive power structure. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/74 "2020-06-08T12:08:26Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I agree that police should not use unreasonable force when arresting people. I agree that there the police are too militarized and that pulling guns and taking a suspect to the ground for minor things should not happen. Things like George Floyd’s death should never happen. > > But we’ve have arrested the four cops that did that, so tell me some specifics about what BLM want. How about everything in this first paragraph? If you accomplished these changes, you’d be the hero of BLM. You seem to think they want something else, but I don’t really think they do. Trick is, can our current police forces support these changes? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/75 "2020-06-08T12:56:31Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > … > For example, a few years ago the cops here had a prostitution sting. A female cop would pose as a prostitute, the mark would drive up, agree on a price, and she would tell him to drive around the corner. He would be met there by cops with guns drawn, his door opened, and made to lie down face first on the pavement. This was everyone caught, white and black. > > I thought it was appalling, but people in the courthouse thought I was crazy and that was perfectly reasonable because you didn’t know if this suspect would resort to violence. They just shrugged their shoulders. > > Perhaps that is somewhat what you are talking about. Your story nails it in one. The police want zero risk to violence in their duties but expect “innocent until proven guilty” citizens to risk violence at their hands. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/76 "2020-06-08T13:13:30Z")
[quote=“UltraVires, post:72, topic:855205”] I’m defending their right to investigate both the allegation of passing counterfeit and forged currency a.k.a. bank notes, and an allegation that Floyd was intoxicated and attempting to drive away. /QUOTE] You wanna cite any evidence that any crime occurred until in this incident until a cop tortured and killed George Floyd? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/77 "2020-06-08T13:24:07Z")
Wait, let me get this straight, **UltraVires** : You think that nobody should ever call the police for anything because doing so always makes things worse, and yet, you also think that the police are absolutely necessary and should not be abolished? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/78 "2020-06-08T16:38:13Z")
[quote=“TriPolar, post:76, topic:855205”] > [@UltraVires](#): > > I’m defending their right to investigate both the allegation of passing counterfeit and forged currency a.k.a. bank notes, and an allegation that Floyd was intoxicated and attempting to drive away. > /QUOTE] > > You wanna cite any evidence that any crime occurred until in this incident until a cop tortured and killed George Floyd? Yeah, the whole transcript of the 911 call. A convenience store owner said that a man passed a fake $20 bill. He told the man it was fake and to give him back the cigarettes. The man refused and appeared intoxicated. The man walked out of the store, got into a van and attempted to drive in an impaired state. That is all first hand eyewitness evidence of at least one and possibly two or more crimes. The police would be derelict in their duty not to investigate these allegations. How is that not evidence? If a phone call is not evidence, what about when a woman is screaming that her husband is beating her? Do you tell her to piss off until she has “real” evidence? > [@Chronos](#): > > Wait, let me get this straight, **UltraVires** : You think that nobody should ever call the police for anything because doing so always makes things worse, and yet, you also think that the police are absolutely necessary and should not be abolished? They are absolutely necessary for the big things: armed robbery, rape, murder. Once you get past that, their utility starts falling and it falls to near zero when it comes to just about any law passed in the last thirty years. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/79 "2020-06-08T17:22:47Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Supporting a failed system that has defied improvement time and again is not a responsible governing position. > > I have a general idea what law and order looks like now and how ineffective the police are in changing that situation. I don’t see a need to change anything where police departments are working and adequately designed to meet real needs instead of promoting fear to keep themselves employed. > > Well, that one is easy. If someone is suspected of passing a counterfeit $20 bill you call the treasury department. If you have the person’s identity you can provide that. Why on earth was George Floyd stopped and arrested? People don’t get arrested or prosecuted for passing counterfeit bills unless there’s proof they knew the bills were counterfeit. Unless they have the wrong color skin. If we scrapped every governing agency that has failed time and again, we would have ZERO governing agencies. And we would start with any of them governing education. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/80 "2020-06-08T17:30:40Z")
But the point is, for a sizable segment of the population, calling the cops makes things worse _even for big crimes like murder, armed robbery, and rape_. That’s the problem that needs to be addressed. And ooh, **Kearsen1** , how about we also scrap the private companies that fail time and again? Private companies fail even more often than government agencies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=5)