# Abolish the police? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205 "2020-06-07T17:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/121 "2020-06-09T21:22:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > …: > > 1. Some intelligent gun control laws. We wouldn’t need so many armed police officers if we didn’t have so many armed criminals. Such as? India, Brazil, etc have many more police killings and yet have strict gun control. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/122 "2020-06-09T21:25:42Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Then it should stay law enforcement. > > Let’s have the actual discussion of what NEEDS an armed and trained LEO and what doesn’t, rather than just send a cop because he’s the only person available to send out on calls. > > Does a noise complaint, an argument, need a LEO (or two) to be first on the scene? An emotionally distraught person, a wellness check? > > Is it possible for a government employee to knock on a door without their other hand on a firearm? Yes, some cities have community officers, who are unarmed, who handle things like wellness checks= they have mace, maybe a taser, but no gun. We also could have traffic stops done by the equivalent of “meter maids”. But with cars of course. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/123 "2020-06-09T22:22:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Full agreement on 1-3. I’m not happy with 4. I’d add: > > 1. Mandatory police body camera systems. With strong penalties for officers whose body cameras “go out” in suspicious circumstances. > > 2. Legalization of recording police on duty. > > 3. Eliminating RICO laws and other programs which link profits with law enforcement. > > And if we want to open up a whole new can of worms: > > 1. Some intelligent gun control laws. We wouldn’t need so many armed police officers if we didn’t have so many armed criminals. And I forgot the legislation now on the floor in New York which will outlaw choke holds and allow disclosure of police disciplinary records. The main thing is the framing. “Defunding police” is just horrible. Scary to law abiding folks. I think a cop lying under oath is a worse crime than an ordinary citizen because it leads to further distrust of the cops. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/124 "2020-06-10T03:02:12Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > … > > The main thing is the framing. “Defunding police” is just horrible. Scary to law abiding folks. > > … Yes. We have to drop " **Defund the Police!"** NOW!! Kill it, smash it, shred it and pretend no one ever said it. Sure, we maybe can cut some budgets and get some more community programs, but “Defund the Police!” means trump wins in 2020. It is as simple as that. > **[The Coming Christian Reckoning](https://www.theamericanconservative.com/coming-christian-reckoning-trump-catholic-evangelical/)** > > The twilight of Trumpism compels conservative believers to face hard facts _“Others will stand with Trump because he is the only candidate who isn’t aligned with those who’d defund the police. …If you are a Christian voting for Donald Trump because he is pro-life, not at war with Christians through public policy, has great judicial picks, and will defend the police, I’m with you.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/125 "2020-06-10T03:18:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > India, Brazil, etc have many more police killings and yet have strict gun control. Right, because if you want to compare the United States to another similar country, India and Brazil are the obvious ones, not Canada and the United Kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/126 "2020-06-10T03:27:42Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > The main thing is the framing. “Defunding police” is just horrible. Scary to law abiding folks. I fully agree. It sounds bad and it doesn’t describe what people are actually talking about. I think “Rebuild the Police” is the closest to what we’re actually talking about. But I can see that also getting misconstrued. Some people might see that slogan as meaning we should just recreate our existing system. I think “Reform the Police” makes the goal clear. But it sounds a little weak. Maybe “Fix the Police”. > [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > I think a cop lying under oath is a worse crime than an ordinary citizen because it leads to further distrust of the cops. I just don’t like the idea of singling out one occupation for different legal standards. I feel it’s bad in principal. And in practical terms, if you enact a law this year that imposes harsher penalties on the police, you’ve created a precedent. What happens if the pendulum swings back and somebody proposes we enact a new law imposing milder penalties on the police? I think we’re better off sticking with the principle that everyone is equal in the eyes of the law and nobody deserves special treatment, good or bad. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/127 "2020-06-10T03:36:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes. We have to drop " **Defund the Police!"** NOW!! Kill it, smash it, shred it and pretend no one ever said it. Sure, we maybe can cut some budgets and get some more community programs, but “Defund the Police!” means trump wins in 2020. It is as simple as that. > [https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/coming-christian-reckoning-trump-catholic-evangelical/?fbclid=IwAR2rYikPLjIGILRDPC7VPy\_U9055mU1zWbQTh-VuwuN8aV7WA2ZOJN8BXDs](https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/coming-christian-reckoning-trump-catholic-evangelical/?fbclid=IwAR2rYikPLjIGILRDPC7VPy_U9055mU1zWbQTh-VuwuN8aV7WA2ZOJN8BXDs) > > _“Others will stand with Trump because he is the only candidate who isn’t aligned with those who’d defund the police. …If you are a Christian voting for Donald Trump because he is pro-life, not at war with Christians through public policy, has great judicial picks, and will defend the police, I’m with you.”_ With friends like that… [https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/09/trump-conspiracy-theory-protester-buffalo-cops-308716](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/09/trump-conspiracy-theory-protester-buffalo-cops-308716) > [@](#): > > President Donald Trump has a long history of toying with conspiracy theories, many of which get little traction or even reaction. But his Twitter message on Tuesday suggesting that the 75-year-old man whose head was cracked open by Buffalo law enforcement last week was a tech-savvy “ANTIFA provocateur” prompted an immediate outcry, as well as support for the still-hospitalized victim. > > “Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN,” Trump tweeted, citing the conservative cable channel One America News Network but offering no evidence to support such an assertion. > > Trump added: “I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?” > > Gugino’s attorney, Kelly Zarcone, pushed back against the president. > > “Martin has always been a PEACEFUL protestor because he cares about today’s society,” Zarcone said in a statement reported Tuesday by various media outlets. “He is also a typical Western New Yorker who loves his family.” > > “No one from law enforcement has even suggested anything otherwise so we are at a loss to understand why the President of the United States would make such dark, dangerous, and untrue accusations against him,” Zarcone said, adding that although “Martin is out of ICU,” he is “still hospitalized and truly needs to rest.” ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/128 "2020-06-10T03:49:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Right, because if you want to compare the United States to another similar country, India and Brazil are the obvious ones, not Canada and the United Kingdom. I would guess that the neighborhoods where police violence tend to happen in the USA have more in common with Brazil than Canada. Brazil is a very diverse and economically stratified country. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/129 "2020-06-10T04:57:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Right, because if you want to compare the United States to another similar country, India and Brazil are the obvious ones, not Canada and the United Kingdom. Sure, those are good examples also. But by no means am I saying that India and Brazil dont have a police violence problem- they do. And the USA does. But my point is- we are not unique or alone in having that problem. Nor are we the worst. That doesnt mean we get to ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/130 "2020-06-10T05:06:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I fully agree. It sounds bad and it doesn’t describe what people are actually talking about. > > I think “Rebuild the Police” is the closest to what we’re actually talking about. But I can see that also getting misconstrued. Some people might see that slogan as meaning we should just recreate our existing system. > > I think “Reform the Police” makes the goal clear. But it sounds a little weak. Maybe “Fix the Police”. > … Yes. Literally “defund the police’ means 'abolish police depts”. Now of course, that not what MOST people mean when they say "defund the police’ - they mean rebuild, reform and yes, cut the budget somewhat maybe. > **[The Media Urge to Explain away ‘Defund the Police’ | National Review](https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/the-media-urge-to-explain-away-defund-the-police/)** > > There’s been an immediate rush by the media to write pieces explaining that, of course, “defund the police” does not actually mean “defund the police.” _The hot protest slogan and hashtag of the moment is “Defund the Police.” At times, it’s also framed as a call to abolish or disband the police. Ordinary speakers of the English language would naturally assume, listening to people chant “defund the police” in the streets, carry “defund the police” signs, and literally paint “defund the police” on the streets of D.C., that such people mean “defund the police.”…Defunding police is also wildly impractical. The Minneapolis City Council grabbed headlines by voting to defund and disband the city’s police department, but they don’t actually have the legal authority to do that; defunding would require a revision to the city charter, which the voters would have to approve. Until then, the cops report to the city’s mayor, not the city council. Camden, New Jersey actually went forward with disbanding its police department — in theory. In practice, what Camden did is just old-fashioned union-busting: disband the department to get rid of the union, then hire the same cops back at lower salaries and benefits._ This meme, this chant might as well say “Make America Great Agian, re-elect trump!” because that is exactly what will happen. But in reality, even the far left progressives like AOC really mean is 'cut $1B out of a 6B budget"- which maybe somewhat excessive but is a good talking point. So- AOC- _shut the fuck up._ Never let the term “defund the police” leave yous lips again. Say “let us make some smart cuts in a bloated police budget”- sure, great. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/131 "2020-06-10T06:53:53Z")
NO Let’s say I run a research project that’s called “the why are simple concepts so hard for certain dopers project” (“Why so hard?” for short). And I receive all my funding thru the local municipality. And that municipality is becoming unhappy with some of the things going on within my group. Let’s say we keep killing people. “Accidentally”. Not everybody in the group is doing the killing, just a few bad apples, doncha know. But it’s gotten to the point where the municipality can no longer pretend that bodies aren’t stacking up over at “why so hard?” And since nothing else worked the officials decide the best thing to do is disband the research project by cutting off its funds. Let’s call that defunding the “why so hard?” “But wait,” say the citizens. “How will we ever find out why simple concepts are so hard for certain dopers?” So the municipality decides to fund a new research project to find out “why so hard?” but this time the charter has definite rules about killing; there should be none. And without most of the researchers who were doing the killing (but not all of them. A couple of those killings had it coming!) And since the municipality has better things to do than come up with a new name for the project (and because they aren’t very creative anyway, they call it “the _new_ why are simple concepts so hard for certain dopers? (with less killing) project” And since they still have a bunch of stationery with the “why so hard” logo on it, might as well. . . So, now my question to certain dopers is: do you understand the concept now? mc ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/132 "2020-06-10T16:54:14Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > NO > > Let’s say I run a research project that’s called “the why are simple concepts so hard for certain dopers project” (“Why so hard?” for short). … This is possibly the most strained and confusing analogy in the history of the SDMB.😛 ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/133 "2020-06-10T16:59:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem that we are experiencing is when a police officer with the ability to use force shows up at situations where force isn’t needed. We have police officers who see themselves as hammers and everyone else as nails. (Or maybe everyone who is brown as a nail.) > > Ideally, we’d have a program where unarmed monitors show up at the situations where that’s the best response, mental health counselors show up at the situations where that’s the best response, trained investigators show up at the situations where that’s the best response, armed police officers show up at the scenes where that’s the best response, assault teams in armored vehicles show up at the situations where that’s the best response, and costumed superheroes show up at the situations where that’s the best response. All of these different situations exist (okay, not the last one) and we need to throw out the “one size fits all” mentality. The thing is, you won’t know what the best response will be until you get there. That’s quite a Catch-22. Normally, when a 911 call comes in on a DV, time is of the essence and the quickest response is going to be by the police, not social workers. There are DVRT (Domestic Violence Response Teams) with police, social workers advocates, etc. in some places but funding all that manpower can be an issue and the team members other than the cops may be coming from home. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/134 "2020-06-10T17:06:27Z")
Like the research says, simple concepts are hard for certain dopers. When people say defund the police and/or disband the police, they mean just that. Not whatever half assed thing you would prefer it to mean. Even if what they replace it with has the same name, and does alot of the same tasks. and, who the fuck cares if it scares some Fox watching deplorables, or even some fence sitting mugwumps like you. Let me make this clear for you DEFUND THE POLICE DISBAND THE POLICE FUCK THE POLICE AND FUCK YOU mc ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/135 "2020-06-10T17:38:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I did mention that issue. I’m sure when a police officer in Toronto or London or Tokyo shows up in response to a domestic call, the possibility of there being a gun at the scene is very remote in their mind. > > But this is America. Everyone has a gun. My florist has a gun. And when the police are trained to put the highest priority on their own safety, they assume the people they are encountering have a gun, are ready to shoot them, and they should defend themselves by shooting first. So a lot of people get shot because they have a cell phone or a comb or a screwdriver or hands. Or maybe even an actual gun. We’ve done the gun control debate a million times and I don’t want to hijack this thread, so let’s just assume for argument’s sake that we repeal the Second Amendment and replace it with text saying that no private citizen is allowed to own any gun ever and that everyone must surrender all guns in one month. Police will still have the same fear of encountering a gun for the next 200 years because criminals are notorious for not following the law—it’s the very definition of criminal, and until the situation is investigated they do not know if the person standing in front of them is a criminal or not. However, I think that dealing with armed citizens is part of the job that a police officer volunteers for. The police should be able to defend themselves with deadly force just like anyone else, but not more so. Just like I cannot draw a gun or fire on someone because we are in an argument over a parking space and I think he is reaching for something, the police should not be able to do so either. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/136 "2020-06-10T17:40:13Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Like the research says, simple concepts are hard for certain dopers. > When people say defund the police and/or disband the police, they mean just that. Not whatever half assed thing you would prefer it to mean. Even if what they replace it with has the same name, and does alot of the same tasks. and, who the fuck cares if it scares some Fox watching deplorables, or even some fence sitting mugwumps like you. > > Let me make this clear for you > DEFUND THE POLICE > DISBAND THE POLICE > FUCK THE POLICE > AND FUCK YOU > > mc Say more words. How would POLICE(v2.0) look like? Who would you hire? What would be the selection criteria? How would you prevent it from looking and acting like POLICE(v1.0)? Understand that nobody is going to fire an entire police force. No jurisdiction will actually do it and very few citizens would want to live in a city where a 911 call goes unanswered. So what’s your plan except to type in angry bold letter? It’s easy to burn the house down. Harder to put a new one in its place. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/137 "2020-06-10T17:45:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, some cities have community officers, who are unarmed, who handle things like wellness checks= they have mace, maybe a taser, but no gun. > > We also could have traffic stops done by the equivalent of “meter maids”. But with cars of course. Why should they be unarmed, especially in states that allow everyone else to carry concealed weapons? What happens when the wellness check is on a Vietnam Vet with PTSD who is pointing his AR-15 at the unarmed community officer? What happens when the unarmed meter maid pulls over a car for speeding but finds a dead body in the back seat? Ask nicely to exit the vehicle? How about we just train the police not to shoot people unless in necessary self defense? ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/138 "2020-06-10T17:45:54Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Normally, when a 911 call comes in on a DV, time is of the essence and the quickest response is going to be by the police, not social workers. Yeah, that’s the problem that defunding the police is supposed to fix. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/139 "2020-06-10T17:48:36Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Like the research says, simple concepts are hard for certain dopers. > When people say defund the police and/or disband the police, they mean just that… Really? Because AOC is in the forefront of the “defund the police” movement, and what _she_ means is cut one Billion$ out of the six billion NYPD budget. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/140 "2020-06-10T17:51:02Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Like the research says, simple concepts are hard for certain dopers. > When people say defund the police and/or disband the police, they mean just that. Not whatever half assed thing you would prefer it to mean. Even if what they replace it with has the same name, and does alot of the same tasks. and, who the fuck cares if it scares some Fox watching deplorables, or even some fence sitting mugwumps like you. > > Let me make this clear for you > DEFUND THE POLICE > DISBAND THE POLICE > FUCK THE POLICE > AND FUCK YOU > > mc SUBSTITUTE MODERATOR NOTE: This is not the Pit, where you can ramp up to this level of invective. It’s time to dial this way down. If you can’t discuss it reasonably, stop talking about it. It’s a serious and controversial subject but you can’t be slapping at other posters while you discuss it. Not in this forum, anyway. Don’t make me turn this thread around now. 😃 Jenny your humble TubaDiva Administrator [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=8)