# Abolish the police? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205 "2020-06-07T17:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/141 "2020-06-10T17:51:24Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Why should they be unarmed, especially in states that allow everyone else to carry concealed weapons? > > What happens when the wellness check is on a Vietnam Vet with PTSD who is pointing his AR-15 at the unarmed community officer? What happens when the unarmed meter maid pulls over a car for speeding but finds a dead body in the back seat? Ask nicely to exit the vehicle? > > How about we just train the police not to shoot people unless in necessary self defense? They run away. They call it in. What does a meter maid do now when someone comes screaming out threatening her when she writes them a parking ticket? Only in necessary self defense? How about necessary defense of unarmed civilians? Can a cop drop a mass shooter? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/142 "2020-06-10T17:58:03Z")
And what is so scary about disbanding the police anyway? Maybe you’re afraid that roving bands of criminals with military grade equipment will be able to beat you up or kill you for perceived disrespect to their authority. or because they dont like the way you look or where you come from or how you pray or who you love. Maybe you’re afraid that these criminals will take your car or house or money because they believe that you might use it in a way that they don’t approve of. or just because they can. Maybe you’re afraid that without the police, 1% of the population will use their power and influence to amass more and more power and influence, while the rest of the population gets less and less and 25% is forced to live at or below the poverty line. maybe you’re afraid that without the police nearly a third of women will be targeted for rape and abuse (sometimes by their own spouse). and the rest will face job discrimination. maybe you’re just afraid to admit that these thing are already happening and are being done by the police. or that the police are unwilling or unable to do anything about it. mc ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/143 "2020-06-10T17:59:58Z")
Nurses manage to safely restrain hundreds or even thousands of confused, intoxicated, belligerent, and irrational people every day. Without weapons, and without killing them. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/144 "2020-06-10T18:04:11Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > However, once the cops get there and calm everyone down and assess the situation, feel like everyone is going to be safe, then a counselor can come out and handle things from there. It’s entirely possible that doing that, and maybe somehow requiring some type of mandatory counseling over the new few weeks could be what prevents 6 more calls over the next month or two. And I feel like, at least in part, that’s the plan. > I could even imagine that being a bargaining chip for the police to help deescalate things. Explain to the couple that the jurisdiction requires someone to leave in handcuffs when DV is involved, however, I can bring the counselor out tonight, and no one gets arrested. > Again, that’s one of the goals right? Help people instead of just arresting them. Getting counselors involved instead of police. > It might at least be interesting to see if it works. I can imagine some problems that would have to be ironed out, but in the long term, on average, maybe it would reduce/prevent some DV. I don’t like it. First, it is overly paternalistic. I’m married. We have arguments sometimes. If we feel we need to go to counseling, then that should be our decision, not one made on the spot by a single police officer who has no idea of our history, and made mandatory without trial or conviction and without any due process whatsoever. You might respond that he has the power to arrest us anyways. And that is exactly the problem I mentioned earlier about too many laws and their subsequent non-enforcement. A police officer holds tremendous power over you because he can arrest you for pretty much anything. The fact that you or I are not in jail right now is solely at the benevolence of the government. Then once you are arrested, you have the absolute right to a jury trial, but you damn well better win because you will get about 5X the punishment if you lose. If the criminal law was reformed, police would have far less power. So in your hypo, if the arrest is mandatory, how is the counseling then allowed? And if it is not mandatory, why mandate on the spot counseling? Why treat free citizens like small children? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/145 "2020-06-10T18:05:27Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > SUBSTITUTE MODERATOR NOTE: > > This is not the Pit, where you can ramp up to this level of invective. > > It’s time to dial this way down. If you can’t discuss it reasonably, stop talking about it. > > It’s a serious and controversial subject but you can’t be slapping at other posters while you discuss it. Not in this forum, anyway. > > Don’t make me turn this thread around now. 😃 > > Jenny > your humble TubaDiva > Administrator Point taken. It is a serious topic. and there are points to be made on both sides. but a serious debate cannot happen when people are intentionally misrepresenting the the views of others. Ive said all I care to in this thread. no need to turn it around, mom. 😃 mc ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/146 "2020-06-10T18:13:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They run away. > > They call it in. > > What does a meter maid do now when someone comes screaming out threatening her when she writes them a parking ticket? > > Only in necessary self defense? How about necessary defense of unarmed civilians? Can a cop drop a mass shooter? Why not? Of course self defense includes defense of others. So the meter maid runs away and those guys get away. Why not have a police officer who can stop them from getting away perform the stop? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Nurses manage to safely restrain hundreds or even thousands of confused, intoxicated, belligerent, and irrational people every day. Without weapons, and without killing them. So do police. Are you suggesting that nobody has ever died in hospital restraints or that there have never been any bad or evil or incompetent nurses? * * * At the end of the day, someone will be responsible for using the coercive power of the state to detain and arrest people, right? Whether we called them “police” or something else, they will serve the same function. So at the end of the day, we need to enact proper use of force policies and ensure that those people do not abuse their power. So why not just do that with the police we have now instead of all of these complicated hypos with social workers showing up for DV calls or meter maids writing speeding tickets or just calling the Treasury Department when someone passes a fake bill? Have trained, competent and responsible people on the front lines making the initial arrest/do not arrest determination. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/147 "2020-06-10T18:15:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Nurses manage to safely restrain hundreds or even thousands of confused, intoxicated, belligerent, and irrational people every day. Without weapons, and without killing them. Sometimes I think you say absurd things for controversial effect. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/148 "2020-06-10T18:22:40Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So do police. > > Are you suggesting that nobody has ever died in hospital restraints or that there have never been any bad or evil or incompetent nurses? Literally half of black Americans report that they, personally, have been mistreated by police. I’m unaware of any such polling that reveals similar misconduct by nurses. I’m unaware of any data that suggests systemic bias in nursing that leads to brutality of black people. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/149 "2020-06-10T18:23:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think “Rebuild the Police” is the closest to what we’re actually talking about. But I can see that also getting misconstrued. Some people might see that slogan as meaning we should just recreate our existing system. > > I think “Reform the Police” makes the goal clear. But it sounds a little weak. Maybe “Fix the Police”. I don’t know where I saw it (maybe upthread?) but someone suggested “Reboot the Police.” I like that – it’s modern and a little slangy, but it’s also a really good metaphor. With a computer, the reboot keeps the same basic structure but cleans up all the bad stuff\* that’s keeping the system from working as it should. That’s what the police need – a thorough clean-up of the attitudes, prejudices and unwritten rules that keep them from being the trusted resource every community needs. \*IANACT, if you hadn’t figured that out. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/150 "2020-06-10T18:24:07Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Sometimes I think you say absurd things for controversial effect. The current system is absurd. Our history is absurd. Noting that nurses manage to do much, much better than cops at this task is much, much less absurd than the bias and bigotry inherent in various American institutions. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/151 "2020-06-10T18:26:36Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Say more words. > > How would POLICE(v2.0) look like? Who would you hire? What would be the selection criteria? How would you prevent it from looking and acting like POLICE(v1.0)? > > Understand that nobody is going to fire an entire police force. No jurisdiction will actually do it and very few citizens would want to live in a city where a 911 call goes unanswered. > > So what’s your plan except to type in angry bold letter? > > It’s easy to burn the house down. Harder to put a new one in its place. Very few citizens really want to live in places like that now, but they do. They don’t really have a choice. Not that the 911 call won’t be answered, just that it will probably cause more harm than good if it is. To me, it makes perfect sense to call for abolishing the police. We’ve been told time and time again that the police are not going to change. Any attempts at reform are met with disdain at best. We are at a point where a substantial part of our population can honestly say that they would be better off if there were no police. That getting rid of the police just means one less group of armed thugs in their neighborhood stirring up shit. What replaces it? Gangs? Why not? It’s not great, but I have become less and less convinced that it would be a worse system than we currently have. So, I can see that that is the position that they are starting from. A police force needs to justify itself to the community it serves, not the other way around. Starting from the standpoint of abolish the police seems a fairly good negotiating point to me. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/152 "2020-06-10T18:30:11Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Like the research says, simple concepts are hard for certain dopers. > When people say defund the police and/or disband the police, they mean just that. Not whatever half assed thing you would prefer it to mean. Even if what they replace it with has the same name, and does alot of the same tasks. and, who the fuck cares if it scares some Fox watching deplorables, or even some fence sitting mugwumps like you. > > Let me make this clear for you > DEFUND THE POLICE > DISBAND THE POLICE > FUCK THE POLICE > AND FUCK YOU > > mc I’m sure you feel passionately about this. But do something like this again and you’ll get a vacation from GD for a month. That goes for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/153 "2020-06-10T18:44:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Literally half of black Americans report that they, personally, have been mistreated by police. I’m unaware of any such polling that reveals similar misconduct by nurses. I’m unaware of any data that suggests systemic bias in nursing that leads to brutality of black people. The goalposts just moved waaaay over onto the baseball field. You went from “restrain without killing” to a self reporting of a vague term like mistreatment. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/154 "2020-06-10T18:47:34Z")
I’m not opposed to disbanding the police, but we need to understand what it is that police are in this country. They are the Praetorian Guard of a quasi-fascist form of capitalism. I realize that individual cops might not see themselves in this way or make that connection, but they are employed by pro-capitalist regimes, their first priority is protecting pro-capitalist enterprise. They are more likely to respect and be fair with ‘successful’ capitalists in this system. This isn’t just the police, though. It’s true of the prosecutors and the judicial system as well. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/155 "2020-06-10T18:50:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Very few citizens really want to live in places like that now, but they do. They don’t really have a choice. > > Not that the 911 call won’t be answered, just that it will probably cause more harm than good if it is. > > To me, it makes perfect sense to call for abolishing the police. We’ve been told time and time again that the police are not going to change. Any attempts at reform are met with disdain at best. > > We are at a point where a substantial part of our population can honestly say that they would be better off if there were no police. That getting rid of the police just means one less group of armed thugs in their neighborhood stirring up shit. > > What replaces it? Gangs? Why not? It’s not great, but I have become less and less convinced that it would be a worse system than we currently have. > > So, I can see that that is the position that they are starting from. A police force needs to justify itself to the community it serves, not the other way around. Starting from the standpoint of abolish the police seems a fairly good negotiating point to me. So this is what I get if I finally see the light and vote for Democrats? No police? Lawless gangs roaming the street? That idea is insanity. Keep pushing that and watch where the swing voters go this fall. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/156 "2020-06-10T18:54:40Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I’m not opposed to disbanding the police, but we need to understand what it is that police are in this country. They are the Praetorian Guard of a quasi-fascist form of capitalism. I realize that individual cops might not see themselves in this way or make that connection, but they are employed by pro-capitalist regimes, their first priority is protecting pro-capitalist enterprise. They are more likely to respect and be fair with ‘successful’ capitalists in this system. > > This isn’t just the police, though. It’s true of the prosecutors and the judicial system as well. Class privilege is a better angle to take. There are serious problems with the police and justice system. It’s undeniable. It’s not so bad that we need revolutionary change. Especially since revolutions are rarely controllable. Ultimately, we need constant vigilance to hedge power sources of all types and constant participation in self governance. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/157 "2020-06-10T18:55:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > A police force needs to justify itself to the community it serves, not the other way around. YES! Government agencies, especially ones such as the police force, code enforcement, parking, exist to improve the community. It’s easy to forget that and have these groups exist for their own benefit, and at the expense of the community. As an aside, not that long ago there was a welfare check called in on my neighbor, a 30yo black female. The police came to talk to us, and we had nothing useful for them, so they wound up entering the home to check on her. She wasn’t there, but arrived home while they were inside, walked right past her own house and came to our house instead. We all felt VERY uncomfortable with her going there alone to let the police know she was OK. We would not have felt that way if it were firemen or EMTs in the house, but it wasn’t them, it was the police. And the police were kind of put out… pissed off… that they were called in for nothing. There is something deeply wrong with that, with the relationship between the police and the community. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/158 "2020-06-10T19:03:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The current system is absurd. Our history is absurd. Noting that nurses manage to do much, much better than cops at this task is much, much less absurd than the bias and bigotry inherent in various American institutions. No argument there. I just don’t think it’s useful to compare nurses to cops in this respect. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/159 "2020-06-10T19:06:32Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Like the research says, simple concepts are hard for certain dopers. > When people say defund the police and/or disband the police, they mean just that. Not whatever half assed thing you would prefer it to mean. Even if what they replace it with has the same name, and does alot of the same tasks. and, who the fuck cares if it scares some Fox watching deplorables, or even some fence sitting mugwumps like you. > > Let me make this clear for you > DEFUND THE POLICE > DISBAND THE POLICE > FUCK THE POLICE > AND FUCK YOU > > mc This post would have been better submitted to The BBQ Pit; the last line will get you a Warning. [Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205/160 "2020-06-10T19:07:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Class privilege is a better angle to take. Yes, yes, yes, indeed. Instead of making it racial, they should be inclusive. Poor whites are treated like shit by the police as well. Even upper class whites have a shitbag cousin who was treated poorly by the police. This is a golden opportunity that the left is messing up because it is one issue that they are right and my side is wrong about. And they had the whole country eating out of the palm of their hand. But then they go fuck it up by only talking about one race and then asking to abolish all police. :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolish-the-police/855205.md?page=9)