# Abolishing Social Security **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 10, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381 "2016-12-10T20:48:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/101 "2016-12-14T07:26:54Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > How many people, as a percentage, do you think would do better at investing their money than social security? I have no idea how many of the poorly educated people in America could do better, but I am COMPLETELY confident that I could. If others want to opt in to the socialist system, I’m fine with that. But I’d like to have the option to opt out of it myself. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/102 "2016-12-14T09:26:23Z")
Risky investments outperform, on average, less risky investments. Duh. Some people behave as though this were their personal discovery, and the government’s financial analysts need to be brought up to speed. > [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I have no idea how many of the poorly educated people in America could do better, but I am COMPLETELY confident that I could. If others want to opt in to the socialist system, I’m fine with that. But I’d like to have the option to opt out of it myself. COMPLETELY confident? Would your stocks have outperformed U.S. Treasuries during the 20-year period beginning 1963? Or is your financial prognostication so extraordinary that you can guarantee a perpetually soaring stock market from now on? Is a Dow-Jones Industrial Average of 100,000 once again just around the corner? A trillion dollars in new money will be injected into the market annually in a privatization scheme; do you think this might affect market parameters? Regardless of SocSec privatization details, the government will want and need to be involved: it won’t want you to get a tax break if your investment is in _Aunt Mabel’s Bar and Brothel_. In the present kleptocratic environment is anyone ready to raise their hand and state they believe the investment regimes imposed by Congress will be fully objective with no influence from lobbyists? ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/103 "2016-12-14T12:42:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Oh no. :smack: If we were in the Pit I’d have to associate your “information” source with the ongoing Fake News calamity. If we were in the Pit, there are all sorts of things you could do differently. For example: implying how you’d speak about something/someone in the Pit. But we aren’t. So don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/104 "2016-12-14T13:28:12Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I have no idea how many of the poorly educated people in America could do better, but I am COMPLETELY confident that I could. If others want to opt in to the socialist system, I’m fine with that. But I’d like to have the option to opt out of it myself. No idea? This impresses me as wilfull ignorance. Imagine the average person you encounter on the street, or at the store, realize that half the people are as stupid or stupider than them, and convince yourself that they - who are likely to be among those most dependent upon SS - are able to reliably save and intelligently invest. And I’m not sure what type of society you imagine, where each individual gets to opt out of selected programs he/she disagrees with. Not one I wish to be part of. Your position is entirely unrealistic and selfish. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/105 "2016-12-14T14:03:25Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Yeah, and why should I have to pay for those darned schools, now that my kids are grown? > > Damned selfish attitude of yours IMO. In our society, one does not get to pick and choose to fund only those functions they personally agree with. > > I haven’t looked into any specific proposals to amend SS. I’ve often expressed my opinion that TPTB have erred in failing to acknowledge that SS is largely a wealth redistribution scheme. Just admit it is a tax, and that wealthy folk will not be seeing any portion of their contributions in their latter years. Some form of graduated means testing - in addition to elimination of the max w/holding cap, gradually increasing eligibility ages, and tweaking the withheld percentage. > > I also feel SS disability and SSI are dishonestly being used as a substitute for welfare and/or voc retraining. Encourages more people to consider themselves “disabled”, which is often perceived as permanent and beyond their control, rather than considering themselves to be in unfavorable circumstances from which they can improve their situation. Of course, if no jobs exist which offer a living wage, the incentives are skewed. > > I’m perceiving a horrible cross-pollination between the medical and disability advocacy communities. Diagnosed conditions allow care providers to bill for treatment, and can provide the basis for disability claims. In the meanwhile, the culture of victimhood and helplessness is strengthened. Not every person who experiences unpleasantness develops PTSD. Not everyone who injures their back is incapable of working again. But if jobs don’t exist, there is considerable incentive for some people to pursue disability benefits. Gee, where would YOU get those ideas from? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/106 "2016-12-14T14:16:26Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Gee, where would YOU get those ideas from? I read a lot! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/107 "2016-12-14T14:28:09Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Not hard at all. We either identify the millions that starved, or call the statement false. Incredibly, incredibly hard. People who don’t have enough food almost never die from starvation directly. They get weaker and weaker until something comes along and kills them. The flu, pneumonia, etc. That’s what’s going to be on the death certificate (if there’s a death certificate at all). And since adequately fed people are dying from these same diseases at the same time, even the best records aren’t going to provide the kind of data the more anal retentive types might wish for. Look at the difficulties in counting the deaths of the [Irish Potato Famine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Death_toll). Which had a relatively decent documentation for the era. You have to use statistical methods to approximate the Famine death toll. It looks like a million+ people died, but it’s not an official, nailed down, precise value. And that’s for one event, in one era, in one small region. And another thing: The presumption that all old people had family to feed them or local charities, etc. is just ridiculous. What sort of retro rose colored glasses leads someone to think this? For a lot of people life was “… poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” Thinking that things were all so much better “back then” ignores reality. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/108 "2016-12-14T15:42:26Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > [Quote=Xema] > Not hard at all. We either identify the millions that starved, or call the statement false. Incredibly, incredibly hard. People who don’t have enough food almost never die from starvation directly. They get weaker and weaker until something comes along and kills them. The flu, pneumonia, etc. That’s what’s going to be on the death certificate (if there’s a death certificate at all). And since adequately fed people are dying from these same diseases at the same time, even the best records aren’t going to provide the kind of data the more anal retentive types might wish for. [/quote] I don’t see why it is hard. If people were weakened by starvation to the point that they died of pneumonia or whatever, then the overall death rate would have gone up. I have seen no reason to believe that mortality rates increased during the Great Depression. **Der Trihs** ’ statement is straightforwardly false. Millions did not die of starvation, directly or indirectly, during the Great Depression. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/109 "2016-12-14T16:25:12Z")
I really, really, hate to support **Shodan** ’s claim, but this is, after all, The Straight Dope. ‘Fighting ignorance’, and all that. [Smithsonian dot com](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/great-depression-had-little-effect-on-death-rates-46713514/) says, ‘Great Depression Had Little Effect on Death Rates.’ However: > [@](#): > > But there was more going on in the 1930s than just and economic downturn. The 20th century was a period of great change, particularly in terms of sanitation and health care, two factors that could account for much of the decrease in mortality during the Great Depression. In addition, the New Deal—the economic programs instituted between 1933 and 1936 to respond to the crisis—and Prohibition may have also had positive effects on health. > > “Our study provides evidence that even major depressions do not imply mortality crises,” says study lead author David Stuckler, of the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine. “Whether health improves or worsens during hard times depends mainly on how governments choose to respond.” So factors such as better sanitation and better health care may have counteracted the negative effects of the Great Depression. _And_ the New Deal was instituted. So Socialist programs such as investing in infrastructure, and providing Relief (assistance to the poor) was likely responsible for helping to keep people alive. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/110 "2016-12-14T19:23:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > … no reason to believe that mortality rates increased during the Great Depression. In fact (as the paper cited upthread shows) they declined a bit. > [@](#): > > **Der Trihs** ’ statement is straightforwardly false. It’s high time for him either to admit this or cite evidence that supports his view. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/111 "2016-12-14T19:48:31Z")
They may not have died, it’s true. Can you say they didn’t suffer? Because I think that’s what this will come down to. How comfortable will you be watching old people suffer? Because suffer they will, without a social safety net. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/112 "2016-12-14T20:16:09Z")
[Graph of death rates by age](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2765209/figure/F2/) in the '20s~'30s. One could possibly tease out an improvement for older folks as the SSA began to take hold, but the cause/effect lags make the data difficult to suss. “Millions starved” is kind of difficult to support, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/113 "2016-12-14T20:26:57Z")
I think it pretty settled that millions died of starvation during the Great Depression. Have you never heard of the Stalinist purges? (Oh - you meant starved _in America!_) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/114 "2016-12-14T20:48:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “Cites” for _future events?_ I left my time machine in my last apartment, sorry. So you say all these absolute horrible things are absolutely positively going to happen and then when asked how do you that they are going to happen you basically say, “How do I know. I can’t see the future.” 😕 So can you see into the future or not? ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381/115 "2016-12-14T22:50:06Z")
> [@Elemenopy](#): > > Wherefore and hence? Therefore, and ergo… > > But seriously folks, here’s where I do get down to the nubbin between my political beliefs and the spoon-scraping actuality. Bear with me. I’ve been a > (yeah, I’ll say it) housewife most of my life. A durned good one, I’d say. Put one husband through school via my hard work and yes, a bit of “under-the-table” pay, and got the second one out of crushing med school debt via smarts and thrift. But I’ve never paid much into SSI…personally. > > What happens when I get old and dreary, if our private finances go astray (and they are rather pitiful right now, I must admit.), But even worse, if we divorced and I’m, say, 45, with little accountable work history? Maybe I could get a job at Target or Burger King at this point… Do I just accept nothing while my (purported) ex claims full SSI and all the rest (all the 401k, 403b, whatever applied, that I was especially thrifty in order to pay the max into)? I forwent a career all these years and took care of 4 kids, but I’m left with nothing? I do worry about this sort of thing when I’m in my doldrums. And I know it must be a real issue to many people. Maybe even me, one day, who knows?! Well, if you’re 45, your ex-husband would have to be quite a bit older than you before he’d be eligible to collect Social Security. If alimony wasn’t possible, yeah you’d have get a job at Target or Burger King or something. But when you reach SS’s Full Retirement Age, you’d be eligible for spousal benefits on your ex-husband’s account, so long as you were married at least 10 years and haven’t remarried. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abolishing-social-security/774381.md?page=5)