# Aborting gay fetuses **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662 "2009-02-20T02:21:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/181 "2009-02-24T17:47:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > While I don’t know about the adoption statement, I do know that every woman regrets her abortion in her heart, though she may hide her heart from herself very well. Abortion is always regretted. No, you do not. Edited-sorry, I missed your last post. IF a pregnancy is wanted, and IF a woman has to end one for reasons of health or because her life is in danger, of course she would. But blanket statements like the one above are WRONG. And let me ask-do you believe a woman should still not have an abortion if her health or life is in danger? **3cushion** , having had several alcoholics in my family, yes, they may have born responsibility. HOWEVER, an addict almost always needs counseling to quit-it is rare to be able to stop on his or her own. ---
**Author:** ![3cushion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/da6949/32.png) [@3cushion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3cushion)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/182 "2009-02-24T23:21:47Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **3cushion** , having had several alcoholics in my family, yes, they may have born responsibility. HOWEVER, an addict almost always needs counseling to quit-it is rare to be able to stop on his or her own. Your point is granted, though it does NOT make alcoholism a disease. It remains a question of behavior and will. ---
**Author:** ![3cushion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/da6949/32.png) [@3cushion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3cushion)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/183 "2009-02-24T23:25:05Z")
> [@katannah](#): > > Fair enough. I apologize for associating the content with the intent. Pretty lame on my part. Yes it was. Nowhere in the original post did I bring up the morality of abortion itself. I only questioned whether a particular group of individuals would adjust their thinking within the parameters indicated. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/184 "2009-02-25T01:26:40Z")
> [@3cushion](#): > > Your point is granted, though it does NOT make alcoholism a disease. It remains a question of behavior and will. It doesn’t mean a person can just up and quit cold turkey on their own either. ---
**Author:** ![3cushion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/da6949/32.png) [@3cushion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3cushion)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/185 "2009-02-25T04:17:35Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > It doesn’t mean a person can just up and quit cold turkey on their own either. Again, your point is granted. People with a prediliction for destructive behavior do indeed require help. I do not think that removing responsibility from them by implying that they have no choice is helping them. Those people who make the most progress dealing with alcoholism, gambling, etc are those who take some measure of responsibility for their behavior and make sincere efforts to alter their behavior accordingly. It is a matter of will. Sadly, not everyone has the will…if they did we would not be having this dialog. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/186 "2009-02-25T04:28:43Z")
Thanks. I appologize if I over-reacted. FWIW, my godmother, my favorite aunt, died after years of alcohol abuse. What’s really sick to me is that it was RIGHT after she had just started AA. She was really doing well, and making progress-then she got sick, and because she was still so ill from all the years of abuse…so it’s kind of a soft spot for me. (What drove her to it was my uncle kicked her out finally one night, she ended up going to my grandparents house, and my grandmother basically told her she had to either get help, or get out.) And then my grandmother’s sister is a recovering alcoholic as well-she in fact, helped my aunt out-Gramma’s Sis (well, my great-aunt). She’s still doing AA, working as a counselor and all that. So, forgive me if I tend to be defensive about this. You DO have to have the will-but you also have to admit-hey, I do need help-I don’t have control over my drinking. That’s why most addiction programs promote going permantly dry. Because often, you DON’T have control to have “just one.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/187 "2009-02-25T04:29:30Z")
> [@3cushion](#): > > Don’t get me started on “diseases” that are really behavior problems, like alcoholism and obesity and gambling. They’re not like cancer or diabetes or hemophilia. Calling them diseases just removes responsibility from the individual. While you may have some genetic or psychological reason for your \*susceptibility \*to these problems, it is still a matter of behavior. Regardless of any rhetoric to the contrary, it is a matter of choice. No one is forcing you to take that drink. No one is forcing you to eat those fries. No one is forcing you bet your house and your next three years’ salary that the Vikings will win a Super Bowl before the end of the world. Your approved diseases such as cancer and diabetes in a number of cases could have been prevented by behavioral control. Recovering alcoholics who have taken responsibility for themselves by abstinence know full well that they are still alcoholics. The have a medical condition that prevents them from consuming alcohol safely. ---
**Author:** ![Bolt\_the\_Nut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bolt\_the\_Nut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bolt_the_Nut)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/188 "2009-02-25T06:44:40Z")
A Law and Order episode dealt with **3cusion** ’s original question. It is titled “Misbegotten”, but is more commonly referred to as “The Gay Gene”. Now back to your regularly scheduled fight… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![3cushion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/da6949/32.png) [@3cushion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3cushion)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/189 "2009-02-25T15:09:29Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Your approved diseases such as cancer and diabetes in a number of cases could have been prevented by behavioral control. > > Recovering alcoholics who have taken responsibility for themselves by abstinence know full well that they are still alcoholics. The have a medical condition that prevents them from consuming alcohol safely. You’re right. Many dibilitating medical conditions can be prevented by proper behavior. That includes drinking. If you know you have such a condition it is your responsibility to act accordingly, not blame the condition. “I can’t drink because of medical concerns” is a far cry from “I drink because I’m an alcoholic and can’t control it”. The first indicates responsibility, the second implies a victim-status mentality. ---
**Author:** ![katannah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a5b964/32.png) [@katannah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/katannah)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/190 "2009-02-25T17:02:06Z")
> [@3cushion](#): > > Yes it was. Nowhere in the original post did I bring up the morality of abortion itself. I only questioned whether a particular group of individuals would adjust their thinking within the parameters indicated. Have you apportioned fully now your pound of flesh, or shall I once again repent of my lameness to appease your ire? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/191 "2009-02-25T19:20:17Z")
> [@3cushion](#): > > You’re right. Many dibilitating medical conditions can be prevented by proper behavior. That includes drinking. If you know you have such a condition it is your responsibility to act accordingly, not blame the condition. “I can’t drink because of medical concerns” is a far cry from “I drink because I’m an alcoholic and can’t control it”. The first indicates responsibility, the second implies a victim-status mentality. No offense, but that shows a lack of knowledge of alcoholism. Most alcoholics won’t admit they have a problem. “Oh, I can stop any time I want, I don’t have a problem!” Very, VERY few of them will say that they CAN’T control themselves, and then claim that’s why they drink. Most alcoholics are in denial. You’re more likely to hear, from a RECOVERING alcoholic, “I CAN’T drink because I’m an alcoholic and can’t control it.” In other words, I have a problem, and I know I cannot control my drinking once I start, therefore, I won’t drink at all. What this has to do with gay fetuses, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/192 "2009-02-25T22:42:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > What this has to do with gay fetuses, I have no idea. Well, those gay fetuses, y’know, go out to clubs and get drunk and take drugs all the time, dont’cha know. ---
**Author:** ![3cushion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/da6949/32.png) [@3cushion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3cushion)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/193 "2009-02-25T23:10:11Z")
> [@katannah](#): > > Have you apportioned fully now your pound of flesh, or shall I once again repent of my lameness to appease your ire? You made a statement. I agreed with it. How does that equate with my being angry or desiring some form of penance on your part? ---
**Author:** ![3cushion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/da6949/32.png) [@3cushion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3cushion)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/194 "2009-02-25T23:15:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > No offense, but that shows a lack of knowledge of alcoholism. Most alcoholics won’t admit they have a problem. “Oh, I can stop any time I want, I don’t have a problem!” Very, VERY few of them will say that they CAN’T control themselves, and then claim that’s why they drink. Most alcoholics are in denial. > You’re more likely to hear, from a RECOVERING alcoholic, “I CAN’T drink because I’m an alcoholic and can’t control it.” In other words, I have a problem, and I know I cannot control my drinking once I start, therefore, I won’t drink at all. Never any offense taken in a civilized discussion. I said “If you know you have a problem…” That eliminates those in denial. Many people with behavioral issues of this nature are in denial. My point was that for OTHERS to blame the problem on something other than behavior wasn’t helping the one with the problem…in denial or not. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/195 "2009-02-25T23:36:26Z")
Except-I have never known an addict who said, “I’m an addict-I can’t help it!” Most DENY THEY ARE AN ADDICT. All right? I’m guessing they also deny they’re a gay fetus. ---
**Author:** ![3cushion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/da6949/32.png) [@3cushion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3cushion)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/196 "2009-02-25T23:45:03Z")
I think we’re on the same wavelength…just arguing semantics. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/197 "2009-02-26T18:13:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Edited-sorry, I missed your last post. IF a pregnancy is wanted, and IF a woman has to end one for reasons of health or because her life is in danger, of course she would. But blanket statements like the one above are WRONG. The first thing God told mankind is be fruitful and multiply, besides don’t eat of the fruit of a certain tree, this is the only commandant of God in the unfallen world. It is what we are made to do to honor Him and our joy will be made complete in that. There is no way in heaven or earth that abortion is not always regretted. > [@](#): > > And let me ask-do you believe a woman should still not have an abortion if her health or life is in danger? This is a decision she would have to make, but it should be in full knowledge that this is a person, her child, that’s life will be sacrificed for her life. The child, if impossible to save, IMHO should be given the respect due any person, including a funeral and death certificate, not tossed away like trash. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/198 "2009-02-26T18:40:21Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Well, IMHO, along with a great deal of others scholarship that has researched this far more than me, here is my current understanding of all of it. I do get concerned when a person starts such a claim citing worldly sources instead of from God, mostly it’s a dead giveaway that the information is wrong IMHO. > [@](#): > > The original Hebrew and Greek words used for _soul_ is very important, and critical to understanding what is being said. Here is how Adam was formed and at precisely what point he became a living soul. In **Genesis 2:7** God forms him out of the dust of the ground, and _breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul._ I had to look at several versions to find a living ‘soul’ instead of ‘living being’. If a soul is always living then saying a living soul would be redundant. I take it as a living soul as in a soul with the breath (spirit) of life in it. > [@](#): > > The Hebrew word _nephesh_ translated ‘soul’ means breath, person or _breathing creature._ Also, _nephesh_ applies to animals. Kasmar states in his book that no where is _soul_ mentioned as a separate entity. The Greek equivalent word for _soul_ translated _psuche_ means the same thing too. I figured this is easy enough to look up. I went to Strong’s concordance, and sure enough every time the word _soul_ is used, hundreds and hundreds of times in the OT, it uses only that one Hebrew word and likewise, there is only one Greek word used for it also. But the word spirit is use separately in hebrew and greek, actually 4 verses use soul and spirit together, all indicate that they are 2 different things, one states they can be divided. > [@](#): > > Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 reinforces such sentiments: > > _For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even on thing befallest them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hast no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all return to dust again._ Here they are talking about spirit and use the word ‘ruwach’ instead of the word for soul ‘nephesh’. > [@](#): > > The Bible continues to clarify throughout that personhood begins with _breath._ When Elijah raises the boy from the dead, the Hebrew word _nephesh_ is used here and throughout the OT hundreds of times signifying breath. This is what brought him back to life. _Let this child’s soul come into him again…and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived._–I Kings 17:21-22 This was not breath (spirit), but the soul departed the body, the Lord brought him back. This is how I understand how a person is drawn into his body in the womb, not by spirit (breath) but by attracting the soul through Love. Elijah didn’t breath into this boy, but put himself in physical contact with him to draw his soul back. > [@](#): > > The Greek word for _spirit_ is translated as _pneuma_ and is used for breathing creature in James 3:26 this is the Greek word used when it says: _For as the body without spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also._ The greek text also has 2 words, one for spirit and one for soul, spirit can be taken while the soul remains. > [@](#): > > In Job _The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hast given me life._ –33:4 Ezekiel’s noticed in the valley of dry bones miraculously except _…there was no breath in them._ So he prophesized and as the Lord commanded _breath came into them, and they lived._—37:9-10 No breath, no life. No life except the bones are able to speak. > [@](#): > > [When does the fetus become a person?](http://www.abortion.org.au/whenhuman.htm) The whole “soul” concept we have today is extra-biblical. From the 16th to the 19th century it was a generally widely held view by the pious that personhood didn’t come into being until the fetus entered the fifth month. The Catholic Church called it the Doctrine of Passive Conception. It was only in 1869 that the church decided that the _soul_ enters the fetus at conception. None of it is biblical, and there are no scriptures stating life begins at conception. razncain [/QUOTE] The quickening is the period you are referring to, which seems to be the period when the child ‘gets into’ the body from the hidden places underground or finds the controls and flips the on switch. My understanding is that there is no real beginning, but this soul is part of the father’s soul, except back to Adam then God. When was Eve created, when she was ‘taken out of the man’, or when God created Adam she was already there? ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/199 "2009-02-26T22:24:09Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I do get concerned when a person starts such a claim citing worldly sources instead of from God, mostly it’s a dead giveaway that the information is wrong IMHO. The thing is, “worldly” sources **can** be quoted. Citing God is going totally on a set of beliefs that many of us DON’T SHARE. You have no right to expect us to live by them, any more than we have the right to expect you to ignore them. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/200 "2009-02-26T22:35:36Z")
> [@photopat](#): > > The thing is, “worldly” sources **can** be quoted. Citing God is going totally on a set of beliefs that many of us DON’T SHARE. You have no right to expect us to live by them, any more than we have the right to expect you to ignore them. I understand what you are saying, but the simple fact is this is not how God works. You never see King David say let me go the the royal library and research this issue, He consults the Lord. The one time He didn’t do this (taking a census of his army’s strength) The Lord and Satan came down on him. God states seek Him, put no faith in man. These are the instructions God gives us, at a point of my life I decided I’m going to follow Him, and He has proven Himself to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662.md?page=11)