# Aborting gay fetuses **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662 "2009-02-20T02:21:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![3cushion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/da6949/32.png) [@3cushion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3cushion)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/121 "2009-02-21T18:41:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is SOP in today’s human males as well. Drive off competition, try to kill (read separate) the woman from her offspring of other males, this gives the woman a sense of loss and longing that the man fills in her life, which bonds her to him. > > This way the male doesn’t need all those pesky emotions. Again, not quite accurate. The competition is to decide the strongest, i.e. best mate, for strongest genetic material for propogation of the species. While some of what you say may be true about some human males, I don’t believe that any of it applies to the rest of the animal kingdom. There it is all about keeping the species strong and in existence. By the way, those words can be applied to some female humans as well. Sometimes we paint with too broad a brush and obscure the details. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/122 "2009-02-21T20:38:00Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I’m sure you wear your bigotry badge with honour and spit-shine it every time you call someone else a bigot. 😕😕😕 How the hell…? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/123 "2009-02-22T05:53:13Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is SOP in today’s human males as well. Drive off competition, try to kill (read separate) the woman from her offspring of other males, this gives the woman a sense of loss and longing that the man fills in her life, which bonds her to him. > > This way the male doesn’t need all those pesky emotions. What the fuck are you talking about? :dubious: (And yes, there are some people who are strongly pro-abortion-a small group, but there they are. The ones who criticized Sarah Palin, for example, for choosing to give birth at her age, to a Downs baby. So much for “choice”. And I suspect it had more to do with the fact that it was Palin, than anything. I despise the woman, but hey-again, that was her CHOICE. And while I do believe, as unsettling as I find it, that people have the right to abort if they find out their child maybe mentally retarded, the idea that they SHOULD and MUST do so, is really sick.) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/124 "2009-02-22T13:13:42Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > What the fuck are you talking about? > :dubious: This was in response to Annie-Xmas 's post not the OP ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/125 "2009-02-22T14:04:30Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > What the fuck are you talking about? Apparently men are both (a) starving for fatherhood, devastated by rogue women’s evil abortions and (b) emotionless frauds who are totally in control of abortions, which they cause to happen so that they can take advantage of women in complex emotional states. **kanicbird** is nothing if not complex and nuanced. Hostile Dialect, Hostile Dialect, Narcissist ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/126 "2009-02-22T14:16:55Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > All male mammals, except humans, get the right to [del]rape[/del] have sex with any female when she is in heat. You want to extend that absolute right to human males too? Translation: “That line about ‘nothing else in the universe’ was shown up as the absolute horseshit it was, so let’s scream something else and see if I get away with it.” Too bad this one’s no better. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/127 "2009-02-22T15:44:06Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > …like down’s syndrome, which is easy to detect, though, even then, it’s not a definite and can only be tested for at around 20 weeks. Pedantry, but… amniocentesis is typically done as early as 14-18 weeks in the US, with a 1-2 week wait for results. Even at that point, it can be difficult in many states to procure an abortion. > [@kanicbird](#): > > …if done at a early enough age they won’t feel it as babies can’t feel pain… Do you have a citation for that? If not immediately, at what age are babies able to feel pain? > [@kanicbird](#): > > This is SOP in today’s human males as well. Drive off competition, try to kill (read separate) the woman from her offspring of other males, this gives the woman a sense of loss and longing that the man fills in her life, which bonds her to him. > > This way the male doesn’t need all those pesky emotions. Can you provide examples of men who engage in this kind of behavior or of cases where it has been deemed socially acceptable? It seems to be very rare in the industrialized world today (I have no idea about developing nations). Generally speaking, men seeking to ‘bond’ with women do not kill their (the woman’s) children. The incredibly rare cases are considered criminal acts, usually get into the news and sometimes wind up in the BBQ Pit as ‘Recreational Outrage’ threads. Maybe I’m wrong, and I could have dated a lot more if I’d slaughtered some kids. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/128 "2009-02-22T16:50:08Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > Do you have a citation for that? If not immediately, at what age are babies able to feel pain? I was saying this sarcastically, I believe they can feel pain in the womb > [@](#): > > Can you provide examples of men who engage in this kind of behavior or of cases where it has been deemed socially acceptable? It seems to be very rare in the industrialized world today (I have no idea about developing nations). Generally speaking, men seeking to ‘bond’ with women do not kill their (the woman’s) children. The incredibly rare cases are considered criminal acts, usually get into the news and sometimes wind up in the BBQ Pit as ‘Recreational Outrage’ threads. Maybe I’m wrong, and I could have dated a lot more if I’d slaughtered some kids. Men will drive other men away from their woman, making it clear that she is his, even to the extent of strongly driving away close non-sexual friends, This is very much the case in dating rituals, and respected by men, even after the breakup a friend of that man will many times ask his permission to ask her out. He is controlling her access to others. As for offspring, physically killing them is a big legal mess, but they will try to do that as much as possible, basically requiring the woman to spend time away from her children. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/129 "2009-02-22T17:21:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I was saying this sarcastically, I believe they can feel pain in the womb > > As for offspring, physically killing them is a big legal mess, but they will try to do that as much as possible, basically requiring the woman to spend time away from her children. The definition of baby is a post-birth person. Pre-birth, a person is called a fetus. There is no moral judgement or political position in these definitions, they are the ones used by the medical community. Deliberately using one word to mean another, when both have well-established definitions is not valid debating. I could say that doctors removed my heart, yet I still live, if I wanted to be deliberately vague by using ‘heart’ to mean ‘appendix’ instead of its accepted definition. As to your second set of points, what word does ‘that’ refer to? The way it is written, it sounds as though you are saying 'will try to kill them as much as possible by [separating them from the mother]. Killing and estrangement are very different things, so I assume you mean something else here. Also, please provide citations (not anecdotes) for this phenomenon. You claim is it common and socially accepted, whereas I claim that it is relatively rare and looked-down upon. The burden of proof is yours. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/130 "2009-02-22T17:45:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Since you respect my theology you must respect my stance that the wisdom of God and His Word far outweighs any earthly authority, as such it is the only source of truth and is the final say of the issue. Whatever you feel about fetuses and abortion, you must have found by looking elsewhere besides the Bible for support. So what does the wisdom of God say about fetuses? Too often I see conservatives pound their Bible, and say, “Well, I know what the Bible says about it” when speaking of it. Do they? Let’s see if there are specific verses which speak out against abortion. I’ve seen self-described plow-boy, Billy Graham try, but he couldn’t even get the context of the one verse he used right. If Delos McKown is right, and I think he is, there isn’t any scriptural support. In fact, there are plenty of scriptures where fetus murder is common and there are times the biblical god has a direct involvement in it. Scriptures standing by, and you? Let’s take a looksee. > [@](#): > > Since my God can’t lie you must have been listening to another one. Which Bible version are you using? Does it not have these verses in it?-- II Thessalonians 2:11-- I Kings 22:23–II Chronicles 18:22—Jeremiah 4:10—Jeremiah 20:7 And this is the short list. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/131 "2009-02-22T18:36:34Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Whatever you feel about fetuses and abortion, you must have found by looking elsewhere besides the Bible for support. So what does the wisdom of God say about fetuses? [QUOTE=Psalm 139:13,15 (New International Version)] 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, [/QUOTE] This shows where we are made, in the secret place, this is not at birth as that is not secret. While the depths of the earth may refer to pre-conception. [QUOTE=Job 3:10-16 (New International Version)] 10 for it did not shut the doors of the womb on me to hide trouble from my eyes. 11 "Why did I not perish at birth, and die as I came from the womb? 12 Why were there knees to receive me and breasts that I might be nursed? 13 For now I would be lying down in peace; I would be asleep and at rest 14 with kings and counselors of the earth, who built for themselves places now lying in ruins, 15 with rulers who had gold, who filled their houses with silver. 16 Or why was I not hidden in the ground like a stillborn child, like an infant who never saw the light of day? [/QUOTE] Verse 11 & 16 indicate that the baby is a living person before birth, as only someone alive can die. The Word of God is meant as much for today as back then, if you accept it as the Word of God it has to be, if not then the entire book is irrelevant. This I believe is directly speaking to abortion: [QUOTE=Deuteronomy 30:19] This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Furious\_Marmot] The definition of baby is a post-birth person. Pre-birth, a person is called a fetus. [/QUOTE] This is just semantics and also untrue, baby can refer to either pre or post birth. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/132 "2009-02-22T19:04:32Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > The definition of baby is a post-birth person. Pre-birth, a person is called a fetus. There is no moral judgement or political position in these definitions, they are the ones used by the medical community. Deliberately using one word to mean another, when both have well-established definitions is not valid debating. Pedantry and Gaudere’s Law. “Pre-birth, a **person** is called a fetus” Would you like to amend that statement 😃 I find the use of the word “fetus” in non scientific discussion is politically motivated. Prior to the seventies that word was rarely used in general conversation. Historically, there never was a word to describe the unborn child. The distinction was irrelevant. Even the Latin origin of the word “fetus” is defined as “offspring”, with Indo European roots suggesting suckling. Today, in general conversation,among those who are intimately connected to a pregnancy, the word fetus is mostly reserved for an unwanted child. Otherwise, its a baby that’s growing in their tummy. Oh wait. I meen their uterus. That thing that is connected to the cervix,connected to the vagina, connected to the vulva. You know, the thing thats connected to the cunt. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/133 "2009-02-22T20:15:26Z")
I was attempting to divine what the statement meant. Is it semantics to use correct terminology in an attempt to clarify another poster’s not very clear joke? You are the ones insisiting that proper word use (as the words are defined by the experts in a field) is actually secret code-talk. But I’m the one engaged in mere semantic tomfoolery. Right. Take a look in a medical textbook or journal, the word fetus is used a lot. Surely you don’t think most doctors involved in prenatal medicine and obstetrics secretly view fetuses (feti?) as unwanted. Adults don’t generally use tummy to mean uterus or baby to mean fetus, regardless of how you think we should talk. By all means, keep going with the cunt commentary, it really helps make your point. Also, what do I need to amend in my statement? A fetus is a type of person. And thanks for dropping the idiotic ‘child-murder as a way to pick up women’ angle. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/134 "2009-02-22T20:36:39Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > I was attempting to divine what the statement meant. Is it semantics to use correct terminology in an attempt to clarify another poster’s not very clear joke? You are the ones insisiting that proper word use (as the words are defined by the experts in a field) is actually secret code-talk. But I’m the one engaged in mere semantic tomfoolery. Right. Bullshit > [@](#): > > Take a look in a medical textbook or journal, the word fetus is used a lot. Surely you don’t think most doctors involved in prenatal medicine and obstetrics secretly view fetuses (feti?) as unwanted. Adults don’t generally use tummy to mean uterus or baby to mean fetus, regardless of how you think we should talk. By all means, keep going with the cunt commentary, it really helps make your point. More meaningless misrepresentation and bullshit. > [@](#): > > Also, what do I need to amend in my statement? A fetus is a type of person. Please refer to \*\*Magiver’s \*\*post upthread. A person has rights, a fetus does not. Do the math. > [@](#): > > And thanks for dropping the idiotic ‘child-murder as a way to pick up women’ angle. Are you high on something ? Where the fuck did you get the idea that I brought forth the ‘child-murder as a way to pick up women’ angle’ ? ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/135 "2009-02-22T20:52:27Z")
Terribly sorry about the child murder thing, I meanth to direct that at kanicbird. His post about branding babies, and the ‘fact’ that they don’t fell pain started this. I was perhaps too thick to see the joke he was making. Taken at face value, his statement brings to mind the image of branding an infant, not a person in utero. Your insistence that fetus is a loaded term does not make it so. You are playing word games, not me. You are not the arbiter of modern English. Don’t let that stop you from saying bullshit again. When did I say anything incompatible with yet another poster’s statement that person = rights. But, hey, you’ve mischaracterized my position, insulted me and insisted that words mean whatever you say they mean. You truly are my intellectual superior. I give up, you win. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/136 "2009-02-22T21:08:19Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > Terribly sorry about the child murder thing, I meanth to direct that at kanicbird. This is what I said was done to the extent that the law allows, but it’s evil. > [@](#): > > His post about branding babies, and the ‘fact’ that they don’t fell pain started this. I was perhaps too thick to see the joke he was making. Taken at face value, his statement brings to mind the image of branding an infant, not a person in utero. Again said sarcastically. > [@](#): > > Your insistence that fetus is a loaded term does not make it so. You are playing word games, not me. You are not the arbiter of modern English. Don’t let that stop you from saying bullshit again. It is a loaded term, fetus denotes no human rights, inhuman and unwanted. The no human rights is the biggest issue I have, these are people with a soul, these are people that God Loves. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/137 "2009-02-22T21:26:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is what I said was done to the extent that the law allows, but it’s evil. > > Again said sarcastically. > > It is a loaded term, fetus denotes no human rights, inhuman and unwanted. > > The no human rights is the biggest issue I have, these are people with a soul, these are people that God Loves. Like I said, it took me a while to catch on to your joke. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on the loaded word status of ‘fetus’. In my opinion, and in the usage of the medical community (many of whom are pro-life) he word used for an unborn person does not carry a value judgement. You think it does. No sense in fighting over it. Just understand that a single word choice does not automatically tell you what another persons positions are. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/138 "2009-02-22T21:45:35Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > We are just going to have to agree to disagree on the loaded word status of ‘fetus’. In my opinion, and in the usage of the medical community (many of whom are pro-life) he word used for an unborn person does not carry a value judgement. You think it does. I was quite specific to exclude “scientific discussion” being involved in value judgement when using the term “fetus”. It was originally coined in the scientific community for the purpose of precision in nomenclature, largely ignored in social conversation until abortion became a political football. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/139 "2009-02-22T22:47:24Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Let’s see if there are specific verses which speak out against abortion. I’ve seen self-described plow-boy, Billy Graham try, but he couldn’t even get the context of the one verse he used right. Are you talking about Graham Sr or Jr? Because I will say that I admire Graham Sr. a hell of a lot more than I do his weasel offspring. > [@kanicbird](#): > > I was saying this sarcastically, I believe they can feel pain in the womb What you believe and what is actual, scientific fact, are two different things. Let’s see a credible NON-BIASED cite for this. No (Choose LIFE!) type of website or publication. Nothing with an agenda. A medical journal or website. I’m not saying it isn’t possible, but I want proof. Or at least, at what stage it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/140 "2009-02-23T01:54:29Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Are you talking about Graham Sr or Jr? Because I will say that I admire Graham Sr. a hell of a lot more than I do his weasel offspring. I was referring to Billy Graham Sr, and was quoting from memory, but know it was him. This particular piece appeared in _The Free Inquirer_ sometime around the mid-nineties or thereabouts of which Delos McKown quoted Billy Graham Sr and wrote an article dealing with abortion and the Bible. razncain [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662.md?page=8)