# Aborting gay fetuses **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662 "2009-02-20T02:21:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/141 "2009-02-23T02:11:58Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Verse 11 & 16 indicate that the baby is a living person before birth, as only someone alive can die. Those verses being:\* 11 "Why did I not perish at birth, and die as I came from the womb?16 Or why was I not hidden in the ground like a stillborn child, like an infant who never saw the light of day?\* Verse 11 only talks about perishing at birth and dying as one came out of the womb, not anything about life beginning before then. Verse 16 doesn’t shed any light on the matter either, and I think you’re giving quite a bit of latitude into interpretation. I think a careful reading of the Bible shows that life doesn’t begin until breathing actually begins. I think the Hebrew and Greek words used will also show this. I’ll save the verses to back that up for another time. Concerning abortion, you give me this: > [@](#): > > The Word of God is meant as much for today as back then, if you accept it as the Word of God it has to be, if not then the entire book is irrelevant. > This I believe is directly speaking to abortion: > > **Deuteronomy 30:10** _This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live._ I’m not trying to be difficult, just don’t know how you can get abortion out of any of that. If you accept the literal world-wide-flood depicted in Genesis, how many women do you think were pregnant? We already knew how this biblical god felt about us after we were born, is there any special favor he is giving to the fetus here? In Hosea here a prophet is pleading with his God by saying: _Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts…they shall bear no fruit…_—Hosea 9:11-16 Was Moses a favorite of the Lord? _Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body._—Deuteronomy 28:18 Moses and Joshua throughout are particular adept at murdering women without regard to pregnancy. Should the bibilical god have whispered into their ear, and say, _I wish you guys really wouldn’t do that._ Elisha states and anticipates that _I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel…their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child._–II Kings 8:12 Gene Kasmar in his book, _Why…The Brooklyn Center High School Bible Challenge_ devotes chapter 16 just to abortion. In it, I also discovered many what particular Hebrew and Greek words were being used for _abortifacients_ and _contraceptives_. I’ll save that for another time too when I have time to dig up some of the pertinent scriptures. I’d also appreciate any comments you have as to why those verses I used don’t show God lying, as you have stated earlier that your God doesn’t lie. razncain ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/142 "2009-02-23T12:07:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > What you believe and what is actual, scientific fact, are two different things. Correction What I believe, and what is actual and what is scientific fact are three different things and thank God almighty we are free to think freely and not assume everything in a textbook is actual. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/143 "2009-02-23T13:08:25Z")
**Guinastasia** didn’t say anything about what you were or weren’t free to believe. You’re using a straw man. This has nothing to do with your First Amendment rights, whose nearly-boundless nature we can all agree on. Quit trying to weasel out of the topic at hand. Hostile Dialect, Hostile Dialect, Narcissist ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/144 "2009-02-23T13:11:28Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Those verses being:\* 11 "Why did I not perish at birth, and die as I came from the womb?16 Or why was I not hidden in the ground like a stillborn child, like an infant who never saw the light of day?\* > > Verse 11 only talks about perishing at birth and dying as one came out of the womb, not anything about life beginning before then. Verse 16 doesn’t shed any light on the matter either, and I think you’re giving quite a bit of latitude into interpretation. To die or perish means you had to be alive before that, in other words that was a alive baby in the womb, what would be the killing of a live baby? Another verse that shows that the unborn baby is a human child of God: [QUOTE=Luke 1:41] When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. [/QUOTE] These babies were already named (Jesus, John) and able to recognize each other. > [@](#): > > I think a careful reading of the Bible shows that life doesn’t begin until breathing actually begins. I think the Hebrew and Greek words used will also show this. I’ll save the verses to back that up for another time. This is not true IMHO, breath, which is spirit, is important, but the soul, body and mind has already been created. In some ways it would be much better to remove the unborn baby intact, let them take a breath then kill them compared to the abortion process as currently done. > [@](#): > > I’m not trying to be difficult, just don’t know how you can get abortion out of any of that. If you accept the literal world-wide-flood depicted in Genesis, how many women do you think were pregnant? We already knew how this biblical god felt about us after we were born, is there any special favor he is giving to the fetus here? At that point of the flood: [QUOTE= Gen 6:5] The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. [/QUOTE] There was no hope for man, just wickedness and evil, a child born to this generation would just be in continuous oppression to this. This is the first and last time God let humanity run so long in their own way. Since that time He lets humanity start being wicked and oppress others to a certain point, then frees the oppressed by overthrowing the oppressors on a regular basis. > [@](#): > > In Hosea here a prophet is pleading with his God by saying: _Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts…they shall bear no fruit…_—Hosea 9:11-16 I would have to look into the context, but Hosea seems to realize that the function of the womb prebirth is related to the breast after. > [@](#): > > Was Moses a favorite of the Lord? _Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body._—Deuteronomy 28:18 This was what would happen, along with other things, for disobedience. God Loves His children, but God said ‘Issac I Loved, Essau I hated’ Issac chose the path to get the life and blessings, while Essau chose the path that lead to death and curses, God gave each one exactly what they needed to come to Him in the end. (and hate is not the opposite of Love, if anything apathy would be the opposite) > [@](#): > > Moses and Joshua throughout are particular adept at murdering women without regard to pregnancy. Should the bibilical god have whispered into their ear, and say, _I wish you guys really wouldn’t do that._ At this point the oppressors were being overthrown, This was to avoid a total wickedness of mankind that lead to the total reset of the flood. It was exactly what God wanted. > [@](#): > > Elisha states and anticipates that _I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel…their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child._–II Kings 8:12 Elisha was going against Jezebel, I’d say the most wicked character in the Bible next to Satan. The spirit Jezebel reoccurs many times, including during the time of Jesus (who got King Herod to execute John the Baptist.) and in the Church of Thyatira, where the Lord Himself said I will strike her children dead. Jezebel horribly oppressed males and emasculated them, and this spirit is alive in our society and churches today. > [@](#): > > Gene Kasmar in his book, _Why…The Brooklyn Center High School Bible Challenge_ devotes chapter 16 just to abortion. In it, I also discovered many what particular Hebrew and Greek words were being used for _abortifacients_ and _contraceptives_. I’ll save that for another time too when I have time to dig up some of the pertinent scriptures. This would go to prove my point were God said ‘chose life so that you and your children may live’ was just as relevant back then as it is today. > [@](#): > > I’d also appreciate any comments you have as to why those verses I used don’t show God lying, as you have stated earlier that your God doesn’t lie. Those verses, which I looked up perhaps 4 or 5 of them, show a lying spirit, not God lying. Part of that is God lets us believe a lie if we are that persistent, it’s a function of our free will. Evolution is one such thing that we want to find, and He will allow us to continue in this by having our minds make connections that don’t exist. Another more relevant one is that a unborn child is not a child of God, a human with a soul that God created and that God Loves. In order to have the choice of abortion we really need to lie to ourselves about what we are really doing, disposing of this child like a piece of trash with no indication that that child ever existed, no death certificate, no name, no grave - this is all part of the lie that is needed to allow abortion to be a choice. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/145 "2009-02-23T14:49:30Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > **Guinastasia** didn’t say anything about what you were or weren’t free to believe. You’re using a straw man. No it was a false question to begin with, Guinastasia falsely said that the options were 1: my belief or 2: what is actual and scientific. But scientific is not what is actual, so there are 3 options, not 2. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/146 "2009-02-23T14:59:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > But scientific is not what is actual, so there are 3 options, not 2. That’s your belief; it’s not a fact. We’re back to 2 options. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/147 "2009-02-23T15:06:21Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > That’s your belief; it’s not a fact. We’re back to 2 options. Are you really making the claim that science IS what is actual, are you sure you want to go there? I believe science itself can prove you wrong. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/148 "2009-02-23T15:15:25Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > That’s your belief; it’s not a fact. We’re back to 2 options. **Scientific:** There are a finite # of stars that are known, and a statistical estimation of how many there are given certain theories **Actual:** There is a number of stars that science can never determine **My belief:** God not only created each one, but know them by name again 3 choices, not 2 ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/149 "2009-02-23T19:35:52Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > There was no hope for man, just wickedness and evil, a child born to this generation would just be in continuous oppression to this. This is the first and last time God let humanity run so long in their own way. Since that time He lets humanity start being wicked and oppress others to a certain point, then frees the oppressed by overthrowing the oppressors on a regular basis. Anyone that has to drown their own children, has no business giving advice on how to raise theirs. > [@](#): > > This was what would happen, along with other things, for disobedience. In many instances if one obeys this biblical god, it means to carry out murder. That in itself is a good reason not to obey. > [@](#): > > At this point the oppressors were being overthrown, This was to avoid a total wickedness of mankind that lead to the total reset of the flood. It was exactly what God wanted. Yep. One can simply show justification in killing another fellow human being, be it man, woman, child or fetus, simply say it is God telling them to do so. General Moses and Joshua armies are the oppressors creating massive genocide, and I don’t see the Bible always portraying the people they are overtaking as wicked. > [@](#): > > Elisha was going against Jezebel, I’d say the most wicked character in the Bible next to Satan. Regardless of how wicked a woman is, again how is the Bible valuing the fetus by destroying it too? Satan is hardly mentioned in the Bible, and not really much in the way of his misdeeds either. He’s figuratively mentioned as a serpent in the Garden of Eden, and he comes out looking pretty good there if you ask me. Can’t say the same for your god. The OT only mentions Satan one time in the book of Chronicles, a few times in Job, where there is a bet between him and God. With God’s permission, fucks with Job and family. A real practical joker; them two are. What I found strange about the ending of that book, is that God doesn’t give him his same children back, but different ones. > [@](#): > > This would go to prove my point were God said ‘chose life so that you and your children may live’ was just as relevant back then as it is today. How is using abortifacients and contraceptives in the Bible proving your point that god said to chose life? > [@](#): > > Those verses, which I looked up perhaps 4 or 5 of them, show a lying spirit, not God lying. Part of that is God lets us believe a lie if we are that persistent, it’s a function of our free will. Only two of the five showed a _lying spirit._ One in II Chron’ 18:22 and the other in I Kings 22:23 where both basically say the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of thy prophets. 400 holy prophets it reads, in which they lie to entice Ahab to his death. Look at the other surrounding scriptures too. They are basically telling the same story, and God is taking responsibility for the prophets lying but does it through them in these two instances. In your eyes, does that absolve God of any wrongdoing here? In II Thessalonians 2:11 God also takes responsibility by saying: _And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:_ In Jeremiah 4:10_Ah Lord God! Surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jeruslaem._ And is 20:7 _O LORD, thou has deceived me, and I was deceived;_ Ezekiel attributes all lies to prophets from God. _And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet,…_—Ezekiel 14:9 Is your God a liar, or the prophets? > [@](#): > > This is not true IMHO, breath, which is spirit, is important, but the soul, body and mind has already been created. Well, IMHO, along with a great deal of others scholarship that has researched this far more than me, here is my current understanding of all of it. The original Hebrew and Greek words used for _soul_ is very important, and critical to understanding what is being said. Here is how Adam was formed and at precisely what point he became a living soul. In **Genesis 2:7** God forms him out of the dust of the ground, and _breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul._ The Hebrew word _nephesh_ translated ‘soul’ means breath, person or _breathing creature._ Also, _nephesh_ applies to animals. Kasmar states in his book that no where is _soul_ mentioned as a separate entity. The Greek equivalent word for _soul_ translated _psuche_ means the same thing too. I figured this is easy enough to look up. I went to Strong’s concordance, and sure enough every time the word _soul_ is used, hundreds and hundreds of times in the OT, it uses only that one Hebrew word and likewise, there is only one Greek word used for it also. Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 reinforces such sentiments: _For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even on thing befallest them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hast no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all return to dust again._ The Bible continues to clarify throughout that personhood begins with _breath._ When Elijah raises the boy from the dead, the Hebrew word _nephesh_ is used here and throughout the OT hundreds of times signifying breath. This is what brought him back to life. _Let this child’s soul come into him again…and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived._–I Kings 17:21-22 The Greek word for _spirit_ is translated as _pneuma_ and is used for breathing creature in James 3:26 this is the Greek word used when it says: _For as the body without spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also._ In Job _The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hast given me life._ –33:4 Ezekiel’s noticed in the valley of dry bones miraculously except _…there was no breath in them._ So he prophesized and as the Lord commanded _breath came into them, and they lived._—37:9-10 No breath, no life. [When does the fetus become a person?](http://www.abortion.org.au/whenhuman.htm) The whole “soul” concept we have today is extra-biblical. From the 16th to the 19th century it was a generally widely held view by the pious that personhood didn’t come into being until the fetus entered the fifth month. The Catholic Church called it the Doctrine of Passive Conception. It was only in 1869 that the church decided that the _soul_ enters the fetus at conception. None of it is biblical, and there are no scriptures stating life begins at conception. razncain ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/150 "2009-02-23T22:43:56Z")
My computer locked up 2x, I’m breaking this into sections: > [@razncain](#): > > Anyone that has to drown their own children, has no business giving advice on how to raise theirs. > > In many instances if one obeys this biblical god, it means to carry out murder. That in itself is a good reason not to obey. > > Yep. One can simply show justification in killing another fellow human being, be it man, woman, child or fetus, simply say it is God telling them to do so. General Moses and Joshua armies are the oppressors creating massive genocide, and I don’t see the Bible always portraying the people they are overtaking as wicked. I can’t think of one that didn’t violate the first and most important commandment. Worship of other gods will IMHO lead to the breaking of every other one IMHO. As for the need for killing, when we sinned death was going to happen, God even killed His only Son - so He is not taking this death issue lightly, it’s really up to God to decide when that death happens. > [@](#): > > Regardless of how wicked a woman is, again how is the Bible valuing the fetus by destroying it too? This was to say that the Lord Himself was OK with directly striking Jezebel’s children dead, not a point that God values human life in the womb. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/151 "2009-02-23T22:55:42Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Satan is hardly mentioned in the Bible, and not really much in the way of his misdeeds either. He’s figuratively mentioned as a serpent in the Garden of Eden, and he comes out looking pretty good there if you ask me. Can’t say the same for your god. The OT only mentions Satan one time in the book of Chronicles, a few times in Job, where there is a bet between him and God. With God’s permission, fucks with Job and family. A real practical joker; them two are. What I found strange about the ending of that book, is that God doesn’t give him his same children back, but different ones. Satan is ID’s as the serpent in Revelation 12:9, 20:2. Would you expect him to look evil here - this is the first sin? OK coming as a serpent was a bit creepy, it may have been better for appearance sake if he came as a cute and cuddly panda bear or something, but the first steps towards evil usually don’t seem all that bad, sometimes it doesn’t look bad to us at all, and perhaps serpents looked cute and cuddly before God cursed them. This is how it happens to us today too, we are tempted with something that doesn’t look all that bad, but spirals out of control. It really takes Jesus coming into us so we can see just how evil we are, and we can see Satan for who he really is in the NT. I have looked into Job many times, the part I find interesting is Elihu is not criticized by God though Job’s other ‘friends’ are and Job is rebuked also. Are the children different? God frequently changes the name as one gets to know Him personally Abram\>Abraham, Sari\>Sarah, Jacob\>Israel, Saul\>Paul, Simon\>Peter, and the curious case of Elijah\>John the baptist. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/152 "2009-02-23T22:58:21Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > I know I do this whenever it comes up, but I consider it fighting misinformation. There are, in fact, people who describe themselves as pro-abortion. They tend to be on the very extreme of the very extreme left. Their reasoning is that if abortion is okay, then it’s just okay, full stop, and all the hang-wringing is only giving the pro-life people more ammunition. As tends to happen in any kind of group, I suspect the right seizes on their presence as outliers and uses it to justify their belief that all pro-choice people just love abortion. Heck, I’m fine with abortion-on-demand, but I don’t describe myself as “pro-abortion” or consider myself on the very extreme left. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/153 "2009-02-23T23:19:04Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > How is using abortifacients and contraceptives in the Bible proving your point that god said to chose life? It goes more to that abortion would be a ever present issue. I would take it as self evident that a population would have some people who would know that the unborn baby IS a baby, your evidence suggests that abortion has been around back then also. If it were ever present it would suggest that God would talk about it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/154 "2009-02-23T23:26:14Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > If it were ever present it would suggest that God would talk about it. Certainly he did more than talk… Numbers 5:27 > [@](#): > > And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/155 "2009-02-24T05:38:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Correction > What I believe, and what is actual and what is scientific fact are three different things and thank God almighty we are free to think freely and not assume everything in a textbook is actual. As **Hostile Dialect** said, you’re free to believe whatever you want. That does not, however, make it a fact. You may believe a fetus can feel actual, physical pain. But I’m not interested in what you _believe_. I’m interested in what various medical research has said-at what stage do nerve endings (causing pain sensation, I guess you’d call it) develop? If you cannot provide that, if you’d rather continue to rely on your beliefs, instead of offering actual evidence, then I’m simply going to give your claims the attention they deserve-none. (And example might be-a kitten’s eyes don’t open until about [seven to ten days AFTER they are born.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitten) I can believe otherwise, that they are open as soon as they come out of the womb-but that won’t make it true.) “You are entitled to your own set of beliefs. You are not entitled to your own set of facts.” ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/156 "2009-02-24T05:49:05Z")
Cutest Wikipedia article ever. Hostile Dialect, Hostile Dialect, Narcissist P.S. Yes, I only looked at the pictures. ---
**Author:** ![katannah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a5b964/32.png) [@katannah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/katannah)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/157 "2009-02-24T08:43:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Abandoning a child at any stage is very destructive, no matter what gender a parent is, but\*\* at least that child has been acknowledged to have existed \*\*and not cut off and discarded as a piece of trash It is probably very easy to believe this in the ignorance of never having known a child who has been abandoned at birth at a hospital. I assure you that a child who has spent 13 years in foster homes looking for a permanent family most certainly feels “cut off and discarded as a piece of trash”[sic]. But hey, at least she has been acknowledged to have existed. That counts for something. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/158 "2009-02-24T11:03:39Z")
> [@katannah](#): > > It is probably very easy to believe this in the ignorance of never having known a child who has been abandoned at birth at a hospital. > > I assure you that a child who has spent 13 years in foster homes looking for a permanent family most certainly feels “cut off and discarded as a piece of trash”[sic]. > > But hey, at least she has been acknowledged to have existed. That counts for something. Being alive might count for more - unless you can demonstrate that this child would indeed have been better off dead. Show your working. ---
**Author:** ![katannah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a5b964/32.png) [@katannah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/katannah)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/159 "2009-02-24T12:14:03Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Being alive might count for more - unless you can demonstrate that this child would indeed have been better off dead. Show your working. What is “count” in that context? I guess we could look at it economically–since birth, social services has assumed all expenses for a child who is clinically deeply depressed and not thriving educationally, emotionally, and in some respects physically. She has some serious abandonment issues and is apathetic in regards to her future, none of which have been worked through in therapy or through clinical treatment (but not for lack of trying or expense). So do we weigh the cost of her upkeep against her potential contribution? She’s not motivated to complete high school (she’s not motivated to complete ninth grade). She’s not motivated to associate familially. Her peer relations are developmentally delayed. We’re running out of time to work with this kid before she takes off and goes… where? Into a different level of the system? I’m not advocating euthanasia for unproductive citizens. I just don’t know what the “more” is that unquestioning reproduction counts for. Does that make sense? \*\*Kanicbird: Abandoning a child at any stage is very destructive, no matter what gender a parent is, but at least that child has been acknowledged to have existed and not cut off and discarded as a piece of trash \*\* Wrong. That child HAS been cut off and discarded as a piece of trash. That’s what my original response meant to state, and I’m sorry if I insinuated that her life doesn’t count simply because she has been treated like refuse and is very, very aware and very, very impacted by it. I offer anecdotal evidence to counter an emotional and ill-conceived thesis. **Kanicbird: abortion is the single most destructive act that humans are capable of** I vehemently and violently disagree. I’d rather see a fetus aborted than a child abandoned. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662/160 "2009-02-24T12:54:29Z")
> [@katannah](#): > > \*\*Kanicbird: Abandoning a child at any stage is very destructive, no matter what gender a parent is, but at least that child has been acknowledged to have existed and not cut off and discarded as a piece of trash \*\* > > Wrong. That child HAS been cut off and discarded as a piece of trash. > > That’s what my original response meant to state, and I’m sorry if I insinuated that her life doesn’t count simply because she has been treated like refuse and is very, very aware and very, very impacted by it. I offer anecdotal evidence to counter an emotional and ill-conceived thesis. > > **Kanicbird: abortion is the single most destructive act that humans are capable of** > > I vehemently and violently disagree. I’d rather see a fetus aborted than a child abandoned. You can v & v disagree, but **Malacandra** stated it very well > [@](#): > > Being alive might count for more - unless you can demonstrate that this child would indeed have been better off dead. Being unloved and unwanted in the land of the living is a horrible tragedy that IMHO should not be allowed, being unloved and unwanted in the abode of the dead is at least no better. I hate both. I personally feel that the number of unwanted and unloved people in society is directly related to the number of people cut off from humanity via abortion - since abortion actually cuts them off from humanity they are never recognized as human (what we sow we will reap - a unchangeable law of God, and expressed in other religions as karma, etc.). From that we get children who are not recognized as human, unloved, thrown away. Seeing these unloved, unwanted children fosters guilt in those who have abortions because that is what they have done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-gay-fetuses/486662.md?page=9)