# Aborting the children of male rape victims **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755 "2013-06-24T03:10:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/201 "2013-07-25T19:40:15Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Indeed. I think post-viability abortions should be banned, full stop; but I think there should be safe, legal, local abortions available before that. Does this make me “anti-choice”? I swear to Glob I’ll drop it after this post, but banning post-viability abortions full stop would have horrible ramifications for women’s health. In the USA these types of abortions are not done electively; they are done because something is seriously wrong with either the fetus or the mother. They are done for women who very much want to be pregnant and have the baby, but cannot. They are tragic, tragic stories. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/202 "2013-07-25T21:43:05Z")
> [@colander](#): > > What is with your bizarre focus on forced abortions when it is so much more legally feasible and ethically acceptable to simply allow child support exemptions for victims of rape? [Post #153:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16495479&postcount=153) > [@](#): > > Lets talk about exceptions, I’m all for that. In fact, I’m more for an exception to release a man utterly from any parental obligations than I am for the forced abortion. As I explained, there’s no fixation here, it was simply the topic that we are discussing. If you care to drop the fact that you think I’m fixated on it, I’ll have no reason to bring it up. But if you insist that its wrong to force abortions in these cases, then I’ll continue to argue why it should be ok > [@colander](#): > > I really don’t think you understand what “pro-choice” means. Eh so, pro-choice, with exceptions. Personally, I don’t consider anyone truly pro-choice if they think that abortions should be banned after a certain trimester or after viability. At least in that continuum, I’m much more pro-choice than those people would be. Let the woman abort up until the cord is cut. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/203 "2013-07-25T22:10:15Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I swear to Glob I’ll drop it after this post, but banning post-viability abortions full stop would have horrible ramifications for women’s health. In the USA these types of abortions are not done electively; they are done because something is seriously wrong with either the fetus or the mother. They are done for women who very much want to be pregnant and have the baby, but cannot. They are tragic, tragic stories. This is an article of faith among abortion-rights activists; but there is considerable evidence that it is not true. Kermit Gosnell was an especially horrific counterexample (and I only need one to prove you wrong, let’s keep in mind); but he was not the only one. Several other doctors may be using better hygiene in more attractive and upscale surroundings; but they are using “psychological health” of the mother as a catchall excuse for going beyond viability even in physically healthy pregnancies. ETA: > [@](#): > > Let the woman abort up until the cord is cut. See, there ya go. As a father of four, I find that idea horrific; but it is out there. Wesley Clark, the real one, said the same while running for president; and many NARAL supporters take this line as well. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/204 "2013-07-25T22:49:44Z")
I don’t believe the statistics bear out the “tragic” myth, either. They’ve always been a small portion of abortions, even when/where legal, but the reasons for them are as myriad as the reasons for any abortion. > [@](#): > > TABLE 4. Percentage of women who reported that various reasons > contributed to their having a late abortion and who cited specific > reasons as accounting for the longest delay > > ``` > Longest > > ``` > > All delay > (399) (311) Reason > > 71% 31% Woman didn’t recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation > 48 27 Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion > 33 14 Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents > 24 9 Woman took time to decide to have an abortion > 8 4 Woman waited for her realtionship to change > 8 2 Someone pressured woman not to have abortion > 6 1 Something changed after woman became pregnant > 6 \<0.05 Woman didn’t know timing is important > 5 2 Woman didn’t know she could get an abortion > 2 1 A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy > 11 9 Other > > * * * > > TABLE 5. Among women who provided additional information relating to > three specific reasons for having abortions at 16 or more weeks’ > gestation, percentage who gave various detailed reasons for delay. > > ``` > Woman failed to recognize pregancy or misjudged gestation (N=277) > > ``` > > 50% She didn’t feel physical changes > 50 She hoped she was not pregnant > 33 She had irregular periods > 32 She thought she had her period > 20 Her MD underestimated gestation > 20 She was practicing contraception > 9 Her pregnancy test was negative > 7 She didn’t know where or how to get a pregnancy test > > ``` > Woman found it hard to make arrangements for an abortion (N=185) > > ``` > > 60% She needed time to raise money > 32 She tried to get an abortion from a different clinic or MD > 26 She had to arrange transportation because there was no nearby provider > 20 She didn’t know where to get an abortion > 16 She couldn’t get an earlier appointment > 11 She took time to notify her parents or get their consent > 9 She needed child care or a Medicaid card > 0 She needed time to obtain court permission > > ``` > Woman took time to decide to have an abortion (N=74) > > ``` > > 78% She found having an abortion to be a difficult decision > 19 She had religious or moral reasons for waiting > 11 She talked with her parents/husband/partner “Why Do Women Have Abortions” by Aida Torres and Jacqueline Darroch Forrest Family Planning Perpectives, 20 (4) Jul/Aug 1988, pp 169-176 (The bimonthly research journal of The Alan Guttmacher Institute) Note that these are numbers for “16 weeks and later,” which is the closest number to viability I can find. And it’s from 1987, before so called “partial birth” abortions were banned in most states. So this is what the behavior of women looks like before their rights were legally restricted. I think it’s important to preserve (or restore) the right to an abortion after 16 weeks, but not because only worthy women who are in tragic circumstances want abortions later in pregnancy, but because \*women \*want abortions later in pregnancy. Not my business why. ---
**Author:** ![NotDeadYet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NotDeadYet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotDeadYet)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/205 "2013-07-26T03:25:12Z")
Wouldn’t the “rapist” have to tell her victim that she is pregnant? And what would be her reason to do so if she wanted to terminate the pregnancy within the legal 20 week window? The more cogent and probative question is “should a man who has been raped be forced to financially (and emotionally?) support a child he had no desire to father?” ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/206 "2013-07-26T12:44:12Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Indeed. I think post-viability abortions should be banned, full stop; but I think there should be safe, legal, local abortions available before that. Does this make me “anti-choice”? This is a straw man i do not think that anyone knows a healthy woman with a healthy fetus who decided at the last minute to have an abortion. In most states that is against the law. My friend found out that she would deliver a baby with a brain outside its head and would only live for seconds. She aborted do you condemn or condone that decision? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/207 "2013-07-26T15:45:03Z")
There are few absolutes in this area, and a lot of grey area on the continuum. I would have no moral issue with what your friend did (though one hopes in the future surgery can save such children). Legally, I would be concerned about its being a fig leaf for terminating healthy, post-viability pregnancies, which **does** happen and amounts to virtual infanticide IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/208 "2013-07-27T18:17:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > There are few absolutes in this area, and a lot of grey area on the continuum. > > I would have no moral issue with what your friend did (though one hopes in the future surgery can save such children). Legally, I would be concerned about its being a fig leaf for terminating healthy, post-viability pregnancies, which **does** happen and amounts to virtual infanticide IMO. Do you anyone who had a LEGAL abortion with a healthy post viable fetus and healthy mother? You don’t, I am sure, because it is so rare and usually illegal. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/209 "2013-07-27T18:48:01Z")
> [@Renee\_RL](#): > > Do you anyone who had a LEGAL abortion with a healthy post viable fetus and healthy mother? You don’t, I am sure, because it is so rare and usually illegal. Which means your point is…what, exactly? Your question is like asking if we personally know a 16 year old who’s bought a beer legally. No, because it’s illegal. Now ask me if I know 16 year olds who \*would \*buy beer if it was legal to do so. Absolutely, and you probably do, too. The question of whether they’ve gotten it legally isn’t important in a country where it’s impossible to do so. That’s why I posted the stats I did - there was less restriction in 1987-88 then there is today. Even then no one had truly unrestricted access to abortion throughout pregnancy, so the numbers aren’t entirely relevant. But they’re about as close as we can get, and they do confirm that most women get abortions after 16 weeks because they want them, not because there’s anything wrong with the fetus. Again, I agree that it’s a very small number of women, and a very, very small percentage of abortions that happen this late, and I do think that the absolute number would remain very small if it were made legal to have an elective abortion so late. Most people do not get that far into a pregnancy and then want an abortion at all. But some of them do, and more of them want that abortion for some other reason than want that abortion because there’s something wrong with the baby. At least that’s how it is at 16 weeks and later - you’ll have to convince me it’s different at viability. Convince me that there aren’t some shitty abusive mothers out there who were turned away from abortion clinics at 21 weeks or later because they were so drugged out they didn’t know they were pregnant until it was too late to get a legal abortion, or 'cause their shitty abusive boyfriend kept them locked in the house and threatened to kill them if they got an abortion, or 'cause their shitty abusive religion taught them to remain intentionally ignorant about their bodies. 'Cause I DO know some of those mothers. They’d have gladly gotten an abortion, they \*pleaded \*to get abortions, and couldn’t, because it was illegal. And it’s those unwanted kids who pay for it, and the rest of us who share a city with them shooting at each other on street corners 15 years later. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/210 "2013-08-03T15:19:29Z")
> [@NotDeadYet](#): > > Wouldn’t the “rapist” have to tell her victim that she is pregnant? And what would be her reason to do so if she wanted to terminate the pregnancy within the legal 20 week window? > > The more cogent and probative question is “should a man who has been raped be forced to financially (and emotionally?) support a child he had no desire to father?” It would really, really help if the poor abused guy has accused his rapist of the crime–immediately thereafter. If he only remembers he was raped after he finds out about the pregnancy, he doesn’t have a very good case… ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/211 "2013-08-03T16:56:36Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > It would really, really help if the poor abused guy has accused his rapist of the crime–immediately thereafter. If he only remembers he was raped after he finds out about the pregnancy, he doesn’t have a very good case… “Poor abused guy”? I suppose he was asking for it too. ---
**Author:** ![NotDeadYet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NotDeadYet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotDeadYet)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/212 "2013-08-03T23:42:29Z")
> [@Teddy\_Kennedy](#): > > Should female rapists be allowed to terminate the children of men they rape, in situations where the man wants to keep and raise his child? This makes absolutely no sense. As mentioned earlier, the man would have no way of knowing about the pregnancy so who is it that is “allowing” or “not allowing” the legal termination of the pregnancy? Again, the more interesting scenario would be “should a female rapist be forced to terminate the pregnancy?” or “forced to carry to term” a pregnancy resulting from non-consensual sex? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/213 "2013-08-04T01:17:48Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I’m as pro-choice as they come, Anyone who supports coerced abortion is NOT pro-choice. (And last time I checked, we do not torture prisoners. I would consider this torture) ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755/214 "2013-08-04T12:34:56Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > It would really, really help if the poor abused guy has accused his rapist of the crime–immediately thereafter. If he only remembers he was raped after he finds out about the pregnancy, he doesn’t have a very good case… That would be a real problem. Two months later, crying rape Would be what all men would do who don’t want to pay child support. At least with a woman, if she reports a rape there is usually evidence of it. It would be up to the man to report it immediately [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aborting-the-children-of-male-rape-victims/661755.md?page=10)