# Abortion, a different perspective just perceived **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2022, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110 "2022-05-07T12:45:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/21 "2022-05-12T12:06:37Z")
Thinking about it some more, Perhaps this may be helpful. It is my believe that God will not allow any suffering unless it is to bring about a greater good. Usually something within ourselves that need it (Job is a biblical example) . So this life with all its hardship is what we need to advance. Some souls do not need that, others do, some others may need extra help after this life. We sometimes know we have to chose the harder path for our own good and take it. Yes I believe some souls do not need to have to learn the hard way in this world, and can move on directly as it was biblically in the beginning and will be again (no death/ no sickness / etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/22 "2022-05-12T20:42:24Z")
Fair enough so ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2022, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/23 "2022-05-15T06:02:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It is my believe that God will not allow any suffering unless it is to bring about a greater good. When a child is raped and becomes pregnant at an age far too young to safely give birth, how do you rationalize it? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/24 "2022-05-15T19:00:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > …a pre-birth soul which lost its body before entering the world (death in the womb), I believe the dream has shown me is exempt and just goes on in it’s journey. Then an abortion has not caused any harm. ---
**Author:** ![LilXMo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lilxmo/32/4225_2.png) [@LilXMo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilXMo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2022, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/25 "2022-05-15T19:01:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > So back to the question as to why God needs to bring it home, it’s because it exists and not subject to the conditions of this world, thus is not under ‘original sin’, thus is not under the penalty of death. Its time is done and its work complete. Any yet with faith, Man still sees a need to figure it all out. I’m not disregarding your desire to understand. I respect that you’ve had the opportunity to challenge your beliefs and then share it courageously with people who like to think and debate. To me the fallacy of religion is giving human qualities and motives to an all-knowing infinite God. It’s human judgement and ego that motivate us to categorize behavior. Something has to be right or wrong, it’s never allowed just to “be”. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2022, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/26 "2022-05-15T19:07:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If I am following you correctly you would say a soul is imbued at the moment a sperm fertilizes an egg. Many years ago I wrote a paper about genetics. I found this statistic, wondered if scientists had changed their opinion on it. Nope. > **[New Research Shows Most Human Pregnancies End in Miscarriage](https://www.sciencealert.com/meta-analysis-finds-majority-of-human-pregnancies-end-in-miscarriage-biorxiv)** > > It's treated as a taboo subject, but miscarriages of pregnancy happen a lot. > Well according to a new paper, they happen a lot more than any of us may realise - even the women having them. The research has found that more than half of successful fertilisations will end in miscarriage. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2022, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/27 "2022-05-15T20:13:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When a child is raped and becomes pregnant at an age far too young to safely give birth, how do you rationalize it? In the context of what you quoted, is this the why do bad things happen to good (or innocent) people)or something specifically to do with the young/fetal soul being in that womb which is unviable and fatal to the mother and fetus? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2022, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/28 "2022-05-15T20:20:47Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Then an abortion has not caused any harm. I believe none to the child, though I won’t not support doing pain experiments on it either. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/29 "2022-05-15T20:28:47Z")
> [@LilXMo](#): > > To me the fallacy of religion is giving human qualities and motives to an all-knowing infinite God. It’s human judgement and ego that motivate us to categorize behavior. Something has to be right or wrong, it’s never allowed just to “be”. I think that is a fault of humanity, not religion. Our entire legal system is not only about finding fault, but actually designing a system so there is a person to blame for when things go wrong. And I would counter that religions do have the quality of letting it be, or it just is without a right or wrong or blame, and obvious religions like Buddhism have this is abundance but even with a god, I’ve see things expressed in these terms. But yes I’ve seen plenty of judging black and white right or wrong in churches in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2022, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/30 "2022-05-15T20:34:31Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I believe none to the child, though I won’t not support doing pain experiments on it either. While not “experiments” we know there are over 600,000 (maybe over 850,000 since data is not complete) abortions per year performed in the US alone. So, we have a great many examples to draw some conclusions from. ---
**Author:** ![LilXMo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lilxmo/32/4225_2.png) [@LilXMo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilXMo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2022, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/31 "2022-05-15T22:47:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > But yes I’ve seen plenty of judging black and white right or wrong in churches in the US. I’m a recovering Catholic so perhaps I’m a bit more jaded on judgement and the patriarchal structure. > [@kanicbird](#): > > I believe that blinded me to the harm pro-life position does, forcing women to live with shame and heavy burdens that were never theirs to carry, but cause by those who imposed the shame, and called women baby murderers Not so much a debate but an opinion that the patriarchal structure has allowed pro-life folks to justify the stance of murder, and the need to “protect” the fetus from poor decision making by a woman. From a woman’s POV, why I’ve lost the ability to make health decisions about my reproductive system. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/32 "2022-05-16T11:11:02Z")
> [@LilXMo](#): > > Not so much a debate but an opinion that the patriarchal structure has allowed pro-life folks to justify the stance of murder, Unfortunately it is a debate as the happiest a woman can be is fulfilling her role that God made her for, to create and bring forth life. Deep down inside this is what makes women happiest, is a wonderful thing to experience some women are just lying to themselves if they think otherwise, and those people who are pushing the abortion option are serving satan trying to steal your happiness and enslave you . Would be another side of this debate. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/33 "2022-05-16T11:24:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Unfortunately it is a debate as the happiest a woman can be is fulfilling her role that God made her for, to create and bring forth life. Deep down inside this is what makes women happiest, is a wonderful thing to experience some women are just lying to themselves if they think otherwise What’s the tiebreaker? If you say X is what makes women happiest, and a woman tells you that, _no, it doesn’t,_ and you reply _well, you’re just lying to yourself,_ and she replies _look, for the sake of argument I’ll maybe grant that you might be right about -some- women; can you, in turn, grant that you might be wrong about -other- women, like the one who’s talking to you right now?_ — then, what? She presumably has a stronger interest in her own happiness than you do; why should I believe you instead of her? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/34 "2022-05-16T11:46:43Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What’s the tiebreaker? Once the woman’s feelings are defined as a lie to herself, we are now free to impose the truth of the matter for her own good, and set things for her so she can realize she was really wrong and be thankful for what we have done for her. So the tiebreaker is what will be, the happiest life with no regrets but a heart overflowing with gratitude. Almost akin to talking down someone from a ledge ready to jump. And yes they do believe they are talking someone out of committing murder and not only trying to stop that, but also free the woman of the burden of having to live with the truth that she committed murder on her own child. So it is seen somewhat as an intervention, somewhat as a citizen/police action, somewhat as a preacher. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/35 "2022-05-16T12:09:31Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Once the woman’s feelings are defined as a lie to herself, we are now free to impose the truth of the matter for her own good, and set things for her so she can realize she was really wrong and be thankful for what we have done for her. But what I’m asking you is, after you “impose” on her for what you believe is her own good, how long do you figure on waiting before you’ll take her seriously? If she keeps patiently explaining to you that, _no, look, you’ve been defining my feelings as a lie and imposing on me for years — hang on, I’ve just added it up; make that decades — and I’m still telling you that, no, I’m neither thankful nor lying, as you’re incorrect,_ would there ever come a time when you’d take a step back and say _huh, I wonder if she knows herself better than I do?_ ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/36 "2022-05-16T12:25:08Z")
It all boils down to this. If you force me to reproduce against my will, you have enslaved me. This, of course, is nothing new. Men have enslaved women throughout history. It is, however, 2022 AD, not BC, and we don’t want to be enslaved anymore. We want to actually rule our own bodies and not have men force us to do anything we don’t want to do. It doesn’t matter if 9,999 out of 10,000 women want and need to have children. What matters is that the 1 has the right not to do so. THAT is the issue. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/37 "2022-05-16T12:34:40Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But what I’m asking you is, after you “impose” on her for what you believe is her own good, how long do you figure on waiting before you’ll take her seriously? It’s never going to end **Waldo** , that’s part of the unjustness of power that just reinforces their hold on the power and reason to keep women down till they came to their senses. It’s an eternal cycle. The more that the women insist this ruling class is wrong the more justification it have to impose their will and justification of escalation of control and methods used to enforce their will and then blame the women for that escalation and say they really didn’t want to have to do that. The only correct reply is to follow their rules as they are correct by divine rite. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/38 "2022-05-16T12:40:11Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > It all boils down to this. If you force me to reproduce against my will, you have enslaved me. This, of course, is nothing new. A question for you based on this: > [@Jasmine](#): > > . It is, however, 2022 AD, not BC, Lets say it is sometimes BC, or BCE if one prefers, and abortion, and knowledge of it, just simply does not exist in the local society but we know that sex leads to pregnancies which leads to babies which a particular woman does not want (the latter 2), and let’s say that woman was not in any way raped or coerced into sex but instead desired it, or even was the one who raped the man. Is it still reproduction against one’s will? Does this change anything, or is she still a slave to perhaps her body/gender/society etc? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/39 "2022-05-16T12:43:15Z")
Hormones are powerful and the sex drive is strong in both genders. That does not mean a woman has to be “punished” for having sex by being forced to give birth to a child she does not want. It sounds like you are trying to make a “guilt trip” the reason why women can be controlled by men. Sorry, not buying it. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110/40 "2022-05-16T12:44:19Z")
Ok sorry for the offense but can you answer my inquirer? It is a serious question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-different-perspective-just-perceived/964110.md?page=3)