Abortion: a different take on the debate

Whooo boy. How is it feasible to ban abortion but not contraception? This distinction is not as transparent as you (seem to) think.
So, Couple A and Couple B both use birth control; hell, let’s say they both use the Pill and some sort of barrier method correctly - they’re being extremely cautious. Couple A doesn’t get pregnant; Couple B does; and Couple B has to have the baby? Their intent and their efforts were equal to those of Couple A; they just happened to be the one in whatever number of birth control failures. That they should have to have the baby doesn’t make sense to me.
Why do you think it ‘desirable’ (you didn’t use that word; I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, so correct me if I err) that someone using birth control (for the traditional reasons, not for cramps, acne, etc…), that is, someone who really doesn’t want to have kids, has them anyway? Is it really that unproblematic for you?

I daresay on some level this still comes back to the same old abortion debates (no offense meant) because there are those that still see sex = children, and people like me, who don’t. I’ve grown up in a world with easily accessible birth control (and hopefully it will continue, ahem, Mr. Bush) - the Pill and barrier methods. My mom had an IUD, and we talked about such things. Obviously, having sex means you are taking a chance at having kids; but with the contraceptives currently available, I just don’t think that as many people buy the idea that sex necessarily equals children. (And of course, even before the innovations of the 20th century, traditional forms of birth control have existed for hundreds of years, and I really doubt that everyone having sex in the 17th century was doing it purely for reproductive purposes - I think the divide is just more well-defined because of the highly effective methods that exist today.)

How about a new economical system that does not require exponential population growth?

Whatever your views are on current population levels, it is obvious that at some point there will be too many people on this planet, if we continue to increase our population (whether that is in ten years or ten billion years isn’t the point). One day we will either have to deal with some workable system that doesn’t require population growth, or we have to expand to another planet.

Why don’t we figure out that system now? That way we don’t have to tell/coerce people into doing things that are against their will for the ‘good of society’ and we don’t put all our eggs into the ‘technology’ basket.

Ah-ha! So that’s what the OP is about. Very well, then.

I suppose you could make a case that if things got dire enough that society could step in and do things to either encourage or discourage births, indeed China, I believe, has programs to discourage more than two kids. (I’m shooting from the hip here, but its something like that.) Even if a country desperately needed more population, I don’t think banning abortions would be an effective way to go. What you’ll probably end up with is women having pretty much the same number of children but just having them sooner, when they’re not ready for them rather than later when they are.

And as that was a reply, me too. I live in the US, and as the population isn’t shrinking here, the US has no worries. As for Japan, that is their own internal matter.

The destruction of a culture is perhaps a sad thing, but it isn’t necessarily a bad thing. This is true given the fact that cultures have come and gone thousands of times over, and yet humans are still doing fine, thankyouverymuch.

Why should humans be immune to change?

I’m all for improving the lives of humans currently living and planning for the well-being of future generations (by doing things like reducing national debt, preserving the environment, conserving limited resources, etc.) But I believe it is a waste of energy to preserve culture and protect it from change. Why is it inherently wrong to swap out burritos for hamburgers? Why should I grieve if a hundred years from now, most Americans speak Spanish? Of course, I place a value on the customs and traditions that I follow. But I’m not going to have children just so that I can rest assured knowing that Americans will always be like Americans are right now. Americans of the future might be “better”, who knows?

The good things of a culture tend to last. Traces of the ancient civilizations are still present in our language, our literature, and our mythology. That good things are sometimes lost is a tragic fact of life. But good things of one lost society can be replaced by other, equally good things from another. Culture changes.

No, the result will be the dilution of Japanese culture, which is inevitable in any case – increased immigration will only speed the process. Further, not caring about increased cultural homogeneity seems perfectly reasonable to me. In fact, I can see an upside.

It might be unreasonable. As you’re surely aware, there wouldn’t be a 1:1 ratio of abortions banned to additional babies born. People would be much more cautious with their birth control, and there would be a not inconsiderable number of illicit abortions. In fact, given the support for legalized abortion enjoyed in the U.S. and (especially) Europe, I imagine there would be many health professionals willing to provide relatively safe abortions behind closed doors.

I don’t disagree that shrinking population in the developed world is bad, but I don’t think that banning abortions is a practical solution. I also don’t think that shrinking birth rates are necessarily bad, as their most likely long-term consequence is increased immigration from third-world countries. I imagine you’re more pessimistic about large-scale immigration than I, of course.

I tend to expect a parade of straw men and illogic when abortion debates arise. And I am not disappointed here.

So - you would allow abortion in the case of “certain genetic diseases”, but deride abortion rights advocates for supposedly wanting to prevent the “genitically (sic) or socially inferior…from entering the population.” Hypocrisy, meet Straw Man. I would especially love to see a cite for pro-abortion rights advocates trying to prevent the birth of the “socially inferior”, whatever that means.

Instead of insulting people who are strong believers in individual rights, why not just acknowledge that certain rights are unimportant to you?

What evidence do you have that, even without immigration, “many of the world’s societies” will not simply reach a population equilibrium at a lower level? If maintaining population at certain numbers is so valuable, why won’t social and economic pressures reverse the current trend toward declines in a very few countries?

The world’s population continues to rise, while our supply of food and potable water strains to keep up. Pollution worldwide continues to increase. And there’s that global warming thing. You appear to be overly blithe about the negative impact of way too many people.

Nope, try “unsubstantiated opinion”.

Remind me again about that “sympathy” you possess.

In short, I think you have extrapolated from a couple of small examples to create a false bogeyman of the Decline And Fall of Developed Society, and are attempting to shame us into Doing Our Duty And Procreating. There are also certain Purity of Essence overtones in your complaints about the potential watering down and destruction of “societies” like Japan’s, should immigration occur in greater numbers.

I’ll believe that we have a population loss problem when natural resources are going begging because of lack of demand.

Till then, you may make as many babies as you want, provided you support them.

I don’t agree. It is having an affect in our lifetimes and will continue to do so. I have heard a statistic that Japan will go from 120+ million to about 80 million by 2050. The population of Italy is also shrinking drastically:

Cite.

Although it’s getting into other issues, I don’t like the looks of population changes in Europe: Local birthrates declining with large numbers of Muslims arriving (I’m just not a huge fan of current Mideast cultures, sorry). On the other hand, I’m not too worried about the US, as we are doing fine as a multicultural nation.

First of all, I’m glad too see somebody on the anti-abortion side of the debate expressing their opinion in a calm and intelligent manner. And I’m glad that you’re ignoringthose who merely want to transform this thread into another flame war.

Right, now here goes. The crux of your argument is that the modern societies will die out if not enough births occur to achieve replacement rate. You’ve argued for, or at least suggested, two mechanisms that could hurt societies. First is that as the population ages, we get a smaller and smaller ratio of people working to retirees living at their expense. The second that you suggested is that as wealthy, modernized societies shrink in population size while the world’s poorer countries continue to grow, the modern societies will simply be overwhelmed.

Now the idea that the aging of the modern world, particularly Japan and some countries in Europe, is leading towards destruction has been a popular one in recent years, popular even among intelligent people. But I don’t go for it. One must realize that all of history is littered with failed predictions of imminent disaster. The changing age demographics will not collapse modern countries, only change them. One of the huge advantages of a society based on individual freedom is that it is remarkably open to change. So fifty years from now, retirement ages may go up, medical care systems and pension systems may be rearranged or eliminated, or society may change in ways that we can’t even imagine know. But people will find some way to cope. They always do.

Then there’s the threat of the undeveloped world population growing so large that it overwhelms the developed world. But consider, what exactly is the threat? We in the developed world are already massively outnumbered, and yet we’re not in any danger. Israel has survived for almost sixty years despite being survived and outnumbered by third-world enemies. In the end, however, the best response is to point out that if we are worried about a threat from the third world, the best defense is to let third world countries modernize at which point their populations, too, would presumably start to level off.

In any case, there is one big issue in your OP that I need to address, namely that you’ve mistaken the reason why women in modern societies have fewer children now than they did in the past. Why do they? Because of economic reasons and social pressures? The idea that women didn’t work outside the home until the 70’s is largely a myth; this excellent book covers it quite well. And consider whether it’s really true that a typical family in modern America needs two incomes to survive. Living off a single middle-lcass income is quite possible. It means a lower standard of living, but it would hardly reduce a family to squalor. The majority of women work because that’s what they choose to do.

Look at it this way. A hundred years ago, or even as recently as fifty years ago, society presented no choice of work for women. The options available to them were dead-end jobs (teachers, nurses, secretaries etc…), while the more fulfilling careers were carefully kept off limits, available only to men. So as far as finding a real purpose in life, a way to feel that they’d made an important contribution to the world, women had few options besides having children. Now that’s changed. Some women decide that the best use of their life is still to have children and stay at home to raise them, and I support that. And other women instead pursue meaning in life in the fields that were formerly reserved only for men, and I support that as well.

One last paragraph, and then I’ll quit, I promise. This one is about social realities in America. Suppose we outlawed abortion. What would happen? Rich women would still get abortions when they wanted anyway, because the rich always get what they want. Most middle class women would probably also have access to abortion, although in more dangerous and unhealthy circumstances than what they currently have; our society is pretty good at serving the middle class. It’s only the poor women who would be prevented from having abortions. So now we have hundreds of thousands more poor children born every year, with few new middle- or upper-class children. Now who’s going to raise these children? Who will pay for them? Who will educate them? Who will keep them off the streets? When they reach voting age, what will they demand from politicians? What overall effect on society will they have?

No.

If I’m following you correctly, you believe a society is a super-organism. And you state correctly that every organism attempts to survive. If developed societies are bent on self-destruction, that would make them defective organisms, using your logic.

Defective organisms are weeded out in nature. You ask why shouldn’t societies be granted the same rights as individuals. I ask why should societies be immune to natural selection?

You seem to be demanding the developed countries take on the characteristics of under-developed societies. To me, that’s like demanding that oak trees take on the characteristics of dandelions. There’s a good reason why oak trees are taller and sturdier than dandelions. There’s a good reason why dandelions are more abundant and fecund. Do you think swapping an oak’s lifestyle for a dandelion’s will improve anything? Is it even feasible to do vice versa?

If Japan’s population drops precipituously, people will make more babies and, failing that, they will adopt (because humans will never stop loving children, even children that don’t look like them). When they run out of Japanese to adopt, they will go after Koreans and Chinese and Taiwanese and Fillipinos. And if they don’t wanna do that, then, yes, their society will go extinct. So what? If a society wants to die off, why should we stop it?

?

Why would you start a debate and then refuse to defend your position?

Yeah, they lost the lottery, so to speak. Mind you, this is not what I think. But in a society that is struggling to prevent population loss, you will see unreasonable justifications pop up for the kind of situation you sketch above because doing so at least goes part of the way toward solving the problem.

I think it’s problematic in the same way that the draft or required military service is a problem. They are both limitations on freedom that the society (for good or poor reasons) finds useful.

To a certain extent, that view served society’s purpose and thus was fostered by it, but that view too is somewhat unnatural.

Perhaps because he has found his position logically indefensible?

Agreed. But the very point of the OP is that we have figured out such a system–not balanced, mind you, but essentially not allowing people to procreate at replacement levels. The sad fact is that we are going to have to coerce people now to have children, not avoid having them. This change has happened so quickly that I don’t think that most people have caught up to it yet conceptually.

One point I think you’re missing is that a culture/society like Japan will do something to fight to stay in existence, just as an organism fights to stay in existence. How they respond to a shrinking population is not a matter for future speculation, it is happening now (mostly they are doing nothing, as one would expect of today’s impotent Japanese society).

Two points, Americans of the future won’t be there at all unless the population stays at replacement level. If we swap current Americans wholly for immigrants, then, yes, the culture will be gone that way, too.

Second point. Of course we have to work to preserve culture. We don’t set the Mona Lisa out in the sun and rain. We teach our kids to say “please.” We have seen NYC go to hell and back in our lifetimes because of subtle causes that had big effects.

Having Italy’s population shrink by 1% a year is, in a way, like setting the Mona Lisa out in the rain. There are good things in that culture we want to preserve. Personally, I don’t want to see Europe turn into a generic, impoverished Islamic mess like the Middle East. I wish the best for the people of the Middle East as human beings, but I think they need to solve their issues before they take over other land masses (this sentiment does not pertain to any particular individual, just to mass immigration without any check or order).

But one reason that the good things last is that societies struggle to exist even as they are ceasing to do so. The Romans did not passively give up when the “barbarians” broke through the gates. They put up a good fight, thereby earning the respect of their conquerors and hence their desire to preserve the culture of the society they had defeated.

No, you misunderstand me. Instead of coercing people to have children, I’m saying we need to explore new systems that don’t have the underlying assumption that populations will increase. If the society/economic system doesn’t require population growth, then there is no reason to coerce anyone. So we haven’t figured out a workable system yet, since people still claim that population increase is necessary for economic growth/societal stability.

Or is your problem with the current system something else entirely and I’m misunderstanding you?

The Japanese language (and Chinese for that matter) cannot last without strong cultures to support them. I mean, Latin wasn’t so tough and look what happened to it. (People who talk about Mandarin becoming the lingua franca of the world simply don’t know what they’re talking about.) Japan’s culture is already in critical condition. Who knows, maybe it’s a hopeless case already.

I agree with you. I am not recommending such a ban, I am merely saying that it is highly possible.

I think that the US can pull through. Race means nothing to me, so as long as the principles of our polity (freedom of speech, religion, etc.) remain, then I’m fine with it. If we were to let Muslims in as the Europeans are doing, however, we would get enclaves actively working to undermine that polity.

Yep, sometimes you just have to throw down the gauntlet, and command people to breed.

So sad, but enjoyable in a perverse way. :rolleyes:
There’s an interesting parallel between your predictions of population crash and doom and the projections of the Club of Rome types regarding overpopulation and the inevitability of mass famine well before the end of the 20th century. Seems those warnings relied on faulty projections and failed to take into account new developments in food production (not that we are out of the woods quite yet).

Your are again challenged to address the likelihood of societal changes stabilizing or reversing population trends in the future, while permitting the maintenance of individual reproductive freedoms.

Or is it too difficult to let go of this excuse to destroy abortion rights?

Self-fulfilling prophesy meet hypocrisy! Hey, just ribbing you with a riff on your debating style. :wink:

You’re not getting how I’m framing this. These are not my personal recommendations. I’m describing the practical applications of abortion. Abortion prevents people with Down Syndrome, etc., from enterting the population–people who consume more resources than they produce. At the same time, abortion kills potential healthy producers. Its application is a net loss in societies in which the population of producers is shrinking (regardless of whether the population overall is growing).

My God, they just had sex and procreated! Hyprocrisy is hot, BTW.

The reality is that parents will now abort children with such minor genetic problems as a missing limb or a hare lip. Such people are just as likely as any others to become “productive members of society,” especially in the Huxlian “delta, epsiolon” etc., sense. But a gimpy kid won’t attract, mostly likely, a good mate, does not go well with the SUV and McMansion, and thus is negative social capital. Abort!

'Cause all rights are “good,” right! We want our rights! Yeah, I’ll admit I think that the right to “choice,” in the scheme of things, is a pretty paltry “right.”

[quote]
What evidence do you have that, even without immigration, “many of the world’s societies” will not simply reach a population equilibrium at a lower level? If maintaining population at certain numbers is so valuable, why won’t social and economic pressures reverse the current trend toward declines in a very few countries?

[quote]
Ah, that pressures will do so is unquestionable. What is unknown is the means by which they will do so. Banning abortion may very well be one method they use. Again, I am not saying that is good or bad, but I will say that the prerogative of society to maintain its existence is worthy of respect.

That’s like saying that having one foot in boiling water and one in ice means that the average temperature of one’s feet is “OK.” Population is a global problem only insofar as we may observe that the absolute number of people on the planet can’t be sustained long-term by the biosphere. I agree that population is a problem in that sense. But ultimately it is a local problem. And local population shrinkage can be just as big a problem.

You think the Japan and Italy stats are “small examples”? And, indeed, those are merely examples.

The OP has nothing to do with shame and doing your duty. It has to do with what the state eventually will do to make you do your duty, by means of shame or otherwise.

“Purity of Essence”? I think you’re looking for different jargon.