# Abortion: A massive political waste of time **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2004, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043 "2004-07-14T08:28:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/1 "2004-07-14T08:28:04Z")
It amazes me how bogged down politicians and the American people in general are over abortion. The biggest ultimate problem we face today is that there are too many damn people, and now here are ideologues that come along demanding that still more people need to be created. Meanwhile we have a ridiculous war fought in Iraq for no reason at all, we have the very real issue of illegal immigration to deal with, our blue-collar jobs are going to Mexico, our white-collar jobs are going to India, our country is going to hell, and here we are bitching about unborn babies being killed? Who gives a damn about unborn babies? I don’t even give a damn about born babies. Why the hell are people so dead-set on destroying abortion (the same people that don’t care about adult humans with children of their own being killed in Iraq?) In a sane world this would not be an issue at all. People need to get their collective head out of their collective fat ass and wake up to the real issues. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/2 "2004-07-14T09:56:18Z")
Yeah, absolutely. It’s the same damn thing with traffic signs. What do they care if I run a red light at twice the speed limit? The cops should be out there catching the real criminals like the murderers and rapists. On second thought, why bother with the murderers? The world is overpopulated as it is. Hell, no one I know has been murdered, so what the hell do I care? And we should completely end this whole insane argument about gay marriage. Why the hell should we care about something so trivial when there are starving children dying in India? And the one thing you are absolutely correct on, there are certain people who should take their head out of their ass. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/3 "2004-07-14T10:53:44Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** Given that we’ve never had a dearth of abortion threads in Great Debates, and given that the OP refers to people needing to “get their collective head out of their collective fat ass”, I’m moving this to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/4 "2004-07-14T13:28:43Z")
In some strange way I agree with you. I think it shows how rich we are as a society that we can afford to care about these things (not necessarily that we should, but that we can afford to). In a subsistance life, some societies choose not to name babies until they are past the point were they are “likely” to die. We don’t worry about that. We can afford to worry about children that haven’t been born yet. We can afford to worry about and support our elderly. No one leaves the handicapped out to die of exposure because they are simply a drain on the community resources. People who are terminally ill have their lives maintained at great expense. Not that I’m arguing for leaving the handicapped to die (or even, currently, a pro-choice position), I just often think the abortion debate is an interesting example of what we can afford to argue about. But the flip of this is as disturbing. If we can afford to worry about their life, I feel we have a responsibilty to then need to worry about the quality of their life. Supporting lives that aren’t great contributors to the community is expensive, and doesn’t have a great financial ROI - but its good karma. And I worry that we no longer have a great committment towards feeding the poor, educating our children, supporting our handicapped, access to medical care for everyone - not just those that can afford an insurance policy, or respecting our elderly by allowing them to live in dignity. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/5 "2004-07-14T13:36:28Z")
There is no problem intrinsically with worrying over such things. It’s when they worry over them on behalf of others while they themselves hold life and death power over us that it gets a bit spooky, particularly given that their ultimate skill set is conning others to vote for them. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/6 "2004-07-14T14:20:18Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > In a sane world this would not be an issue at all. People need to get their collective head out of their collective fat ass and wake up to the real issues. Well, that’s fine, except that (1) a whole bunch of people believe that minding their own business and adopting a _laissez faire_ attitude about what other people want to do re: abortion, gay marriage, etc. will result in either (a) that when a Powerful Transdimensional Being decides to rain fire on the people doing these things, those who just stood by will become pillars of salt, or something, or (b) a deterioration of the overall quality of life resulting in a depreciation of their property, a rise in their taxes, mobs in the street, dogs and cats living together, etc. , or (c) both; and… (2) therefore there ought to be a Law to prevent this from happening; which we CAN do, while we cannot pass a Law to keep people from starving in Sudan or to clean up the mess in Timor or to patch the ozone hole (remember the ozone hole?), so why waste time on that. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/7 "2004-07-14T14:32:59Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > It amazes me how bogged down politicians and the American people in general are over abortion. Yeah, funny how the death of innocents can get people’s panties in a bunch. Kind of like how a lot of people aren’t happy about events in Iraq right now. > [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > The biggest ultimate problem we face today is that there are too many damn people, and now here are ideologues that come along demanding that still more people need to be created. Really? I think it’s intolerance, but you’re entitled to your opinion. > [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Meanwhile we have a ridiculous war fought in Iraq for no reason at all, we have the very real issue of illegal immigration to deal with, our blue-collar jobs are going to Mexico, our white-collar jobs are going to India, our country is going to hell, and here we are bitching about unborn babies being killed? Since when are we unable to deal with more than one issue at a time? > [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Who gives a damn about unborn babies? I don’t even give a damn about born babies. You’re just a peach, aren’t you? :rolleyes: > [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Why the hell are people so dead-set on destroying abortion (the same people that don’t care about adult humans with children of their own being killed in Iraq?) You know, I had no idea that all pro-life folk wanted to see lots and lots of deaths in Iraq. Thank you for squashing my ignorance. > [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > In a sane world this would not be an issue at all. People need to get their collective head out of their collective fat ass and wake up to the real issues. We don’t live in a “sane world.” Never have, never will. I’ll repeat my first question: Why can’t we deal with more than one issue at a time? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/8 "2004-07-14T14:39:49Z")
So long as the Pubbies can keep the rubes voting against their own best financial interests by waggling the abortion and gay marriage things in front of them, they’ll do it. When you are saying “we” are wasting time, you’re wrong. The Pubbie leadership is doing quite well with the abortion issue, and the rest of us are willing to leave well enough alone. Your ire is most properly directed at the rubes, and they’re so bone-stupid it’s hard to say what might get them to recognize their real interests. They’d rather see their own kids lose opportunities to go to college or get a good job rather than let some gal they don’t even know have an abortion. I dunno what you can do with or for people that dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/9 "2004-07-14T15:03:01Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > (1) a whole bunch of people believe that minding their own business and adopting a _laissez faire_ attitude about what other people want to do re: abortion, gay marriage, etc. will result in either (a) that when a Powerful Transdimensional Being decides to rain fire on the people doing these things, those who just stood by will become pillars of salt, or something, or (b) a deterioration of the overall quality of life resulting in a depreciation of their property, a rise in their taxes, mobs in the street, dogs and cats living together, etc. , or (c) both; and… > > (2) therefore there ought to be a Law to prevent this from happening; which we CAN do, while we cannot pass a Law to keep people from starving in Sudan or to clean up the mess in Timor or to patch the ozone hole (remember the ozone hole?), so why waste time on that. And those who are pro-life, pro gay marriage, and pro-environment? Of course, if you wish to bunch all pro-lifers as Bible-thumping, self-concerned idiots, why who am I to fight such ignorance. > [@EvilCaptor](#): > > So long as the Pubbies can keep the rubes voting against their own best financial interests by waggling the abortion and gay marriage things in front of them, they’ll do it. When you are saying “we” are wasting time, you’re wrong. The Pubbie leadership is doing quite well with the abortion issue, and the rest of us are willing to leave well enough alone. Your ire is most properly directed at the rubes, and they’re so bone-stupid it’s hard to say what might get them to recognize their real interests. They’d rather see their own kids lose opportunities to go to college or get a good job rather than let some gal they don’t even know have an abortion. I dunno what you can do with or for people that dumb. Why the continued insistence on grouping abortion and gay marriage? And why is it only rubes who are pro-life? At the risk of repeating myself: Of course, if you wish to bunch all pro-lifers as Bible-thumping, self-concerned idiots, why who am I to fight such ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/10 "2004-07-14T17:23:07Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > The biggest ultimate problem we face today is that there are too many damn people, Really? I’m going to have to ask for a cite for that. Can you demonstrate that it is indeed _the biggest ultimate problem that we face today_? > [@](#): > > and now here are ideologues that come along demanding that still more people need to be created. Nonsense. While some could conceivably argue that way, the majority of pro-lifers do not. Rather, their contention is that killing the unborn is not an acceptable option – whether for financial matters, for the pursuit of one’s career, or to curb population growth. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/11 "2004-07-14T18:24:34Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > At the risk of repeating myself: Of course, if you wish to bunch all pro-lifers as Bible-thumping, self-concerned idiots, why who am I to fight such ignorance. I explained EXACTLY which portion of the anti-choice crew I thought were self-concerned idiots. That’s EXACTLY how I feel about them. I understand there may be some portion of that group that is intelligent, but I don’t think it’s a LARGE portion. Maybe 10 percent. The other 90 percent are quite properly described as rubes. And who ARE you, to fight simple common sense and logic? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/12 "2004-07-14T19:01:06Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > And who ARE you, to fight simple common sense and logic? The common sense of ad hominium attacks and name calling? The logic of generalities? Or do you mean to imply that being pro-life means being illogical and stupid? I’m having trouble grasping the complexities of you well-refined argument. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/13 "2004-07-15T03:52:40Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The common sense of ad hominium attacks and name calling? The logic of generalities? Or do you mean to imply that being pro-life means being illogical and stupid? I’m having trouble grasping the complexities of you well-refined argument. It’s spelled “ad hominem.” And anyone who lets the abortion issue distract them from the royal screwing the Pubbies are giving the middle class and the poor is a fool and rube. This does not mean ALL anti-choice individuals are rubes and fools – some may be wealthy and therefore not part of the screwed group, and some may be anti-choice but smart enough to realize that fundamental economic issues trump abstract ethical issues in the real world. But I don’t think they constitute a huge portion of anti-choice folks. Certainly, there are enough anti-choice rubes and fools to allow the Pubbie strategy to work fairly well for them. Clear enough for ya? ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/14 "2004-07-15T09:50:18Z")
Let’s play spot the fallacy. See if you can guess them all! > [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > It amazes me how bogged down politicians and the American people in general are over abortion. unsupported proposition > [@](#): > > The biggest ultimate problem we face today is that there are too many damn people, red herring unsupported proposition > [@](#): > > and now here are ideologues that come along demanding that still more people need to be created. strawman > [@](#): > > Meanwhile we have a ridiculous war fought in Iraq for no reason at all, we have the very real issue of illegal immigration to deal with, our blue-collar jobs are going to Mexico, our white-collar jobs are going to India, our country is going to hell, and here we are bitching about unborn babies being killed? [spoiler]red herring[spoiler] bifurcation > [@](#): > > Who gives a damn about unborn babies? Argumentum ad populum > [@](#): > > I don’t even give a damn about born babies. Being a prick > [@](#): > > Why the hell are people so dead-set on destroying abortion (the same people that don’t care about adult humans with children of their own being killed in Iraq?) strawman Argumentum ad misericordiam Argumentum ad hominem Dicto simpliciter package deal > [@](#): > > In a sane world this would not be an issue at all. Petitio Principii > [@](#): > > People need to get their collective head out of their collective fat ass and wake up to the real issues. Argumentum ad hominem ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/15 "2004-07-15T16:17:01Z")
::gives **flight** a standing ovation:: ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/16 "2004-07-15T18:04:43Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > ::gives **flight** a standing ovation:: Indeed. This may be a _stupid_ question, but where does one learn those things? Is it debate class or philosophy logic or what? I must know. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/17 "2004-07-15T18:14:35Z")
[This website](http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html) will get you started. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/18 "2004-07-16T07:47:23Z")
Frankly I don’t anything beyond the standard strawman and one or two others. I looked up a comprehensive list and found that most of them were somewhere in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/19 "2004-07-16T08:02:41Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The common sense of ad hominium attacks and name calling? The logic of generalities? Or do you mean to imply that being pro-life means being illogical and stupid? I’m having trouble grasping the complexities of you well-refined argument. Not simply illogical but disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043/20 "2004-07-16T08:04:01Z")
> [@flight](#): > > Frankly I don’t anything beyond the standard strawman and one or two others. I looked up a comprehensive list and found that most of them were somewhere in the OP. And your post added what to this thread? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-a-massive-political-waste-of-time/255043.md?page=2)