# Abortion and child support **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985 "2010-12-13T15:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/201 "2010-12-16T15:50:50Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Biology says that’s untrue. > > You seem to be claiming that since she had more opportunities to decide whether to keep the child she assumes sole responsibility but that’s not true either. > > Let’s assume both parties are surprised by an unwanted pregnancy. At that point she has the choice of abortion or carrying to term since biology dictates only she can carry the child. If she carries to term she can decide whether to keep the child or give it up for adoption. The father also has a choice there because even if she chooses adoption, he can partition for custody. It’s not all her choice. > If she chooses to keep the child then the needs and rights of the child are included in the mix and that outweighs the father’s wishes to not support the child. You’re making it all about the woman’s choices, when in fact it has a lot to do with the child’s needs and rights. Outside of food enough for survival and not being abritrarily raped or beaten I don’t consider kids to have rights. Anything else is the gift of their parents or other adults who freely choose to give to them. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/202 "2010-12-16T15:57:49Z")
> [@villa](#): > > The bottom line is I want my son to have a good life, a happy life, and to grow up well adjusted. I don’t think requiring my ex-wife to shiver in the cold, to keep receipts for everything she purchases, and to eat cat food is the best way of achieving that. That’s very noble. Seriously, it is. If, heaven forbid, my wife and I ever divorced, I would hope that my attitude towards her would be as healthy as yours. However, if she’s spending your son’s money on herself, I’d say that she’s stealing from him. This is not exactly conducive to him becoming well adjusted if he can’t trust her with his child support. If she uses part of it to pay rent, that’s reasonable. If she uses all of it for rent money, I’d say that it’s not. It’s very similar to the IRS drawing up regulations as to what percentage of expenses can be classified as for business and what can’t. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/203 "2010-12-16T15:59:05Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In parts of the world with high levels of corruption and bribery you can do just that. Well done. And in parts of the world with high levels of corruption and bribery you can purchase parts of endangered animals. Not sure of the relevance, though. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/204 "2010-12-16T16:00:14Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > That’s very noble. Seriously, it is. If, heaven forbid, my wife and I ever divorced, I would hope that my attitude towards her would be as healthy as yours. However, if she’s spending your son’s money on herself, I’d say that she’s stealing from him. This is not exactly conducive to him becoming well adjusted if he can’t trust her with his child support. If she uses part of it to pay rent, that’s reasonable. If she uses all of it for rent money, I’d say that it’s not. It’s very similar to the IRS drawing up regulations as to what percentage of expenses can be classified as for business and what can’t. And I’d say you are flat out wrong. A poverty striken mother cannot provide the best situation possible for the child. It isn’t about punishing your ex, it is about supporting your child. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/205 "2010-12-16T16:09:26Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In many cultures and families biological parents never express their feelings in word or deeds that way. Virtually every person I knew growing up understood that our families loved us because we were family members (related by DNA) and that love was always conditionally on us being loyal and obedient to the family. I honestly think unconditional love is unhealthy for a child and will lead to them growing up to be psychopaths. I know you have strong feelings about DNA, but if the child and the father don’t KNOW they aren’t related by DNA, and it comes out later (even after the child is an adult), should the child be punished for something that they didn’t do, didn’t know about, and didn’t have any control over? What if they are still loyal and obedient to the family? Should they be cast out based on something that really has nothing to do with their reality at all? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/206 "2010-12-16T16:28:35Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I know you have strong feelings about DNA, but if the child and the father don’t KNOW they aren’t related by DNA, and it comes out later (even after the child is an adult), should the child be punished for something that they didn’t do, didn’t know about, and didn’t have any control over? What if they are still loyal and obedient to the family? Should they be cast out based on something that really has nothing to do with their reality at all? If they are still loyal and obedient to the family they would be more concerned over how revelations of betrayal affect the larger family (many might choose to leave to avoid the harm their presence could do other members); furthermore if they choose to stay wouldn’t object to the change in titles and status from no longer being a son or daughter but being instead a godchild or ward. Some might even relish the freedom that entails. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/207 "2010-12-16T16:37:07Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Outside of food enough for survival and not being abritrarily raped or beaten I don’t consider kids to have rights. Anything else is the gift of their parents or other adults who freely choose to give to them. Wait, so rape and beatings are okay so long as it’s not done arbitrarily? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/208 "2010-12-16T16:46:02Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Outside of food enough for survival and not being abritrarily raped or beaten I don’t consider kids to have rights. Anything else is the gift of their parents or other adults who freely choose to give to them. Then lets call it promoting general welfare which falls under the Constitution, not to mention the moral an ethical obligation of society, and the individuals involved. You cannot leave the welfare of a child unable to care for itself, out of the equation when decided what justice is for the individuals involved since that child is now one of those individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/209 "2010-12-16T16:50:07Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If they are still loyal and obedient to the family they would be more concerned over how revelations of betrayal affect the larger family (many might choose to leave to avoid the harm their presence could do other members); furthermore if they choose to stay wouldn’t object to the change in titles and status from no longer being a son or daughter but being instead a godchild or ward. Some might even relish the freedom that entails. Have you ever actually known a child? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/210 "2010-12-16T16:52:48Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > That’s very noble. Seriously, it is. If, heaven forbid, my wife and I ever divorced, I would hope that my attitude towards her would be as healthy as yours. However, if she’s spending your son’s money on herself, I’d say that she’s stealing from him. This is not exactly conducive to him becoming well adjusted if he can’t trust her with his child support. If she uses part of it to pay rent, that’s reasonable. If she uses all of it for rent money, I’d say that it’s not. It’s very similar to the IRS drawing up regulations as to what percentage of expenses can be classified as for business and what can’t. Once again, if the child is being given shelter clothes and food it would be very hard to determine that a woman is spending the child’s money on themselves. Usually child support covers those basics. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/211 "2010-12-16T16:53:30Z")
I’m glad ZPG assures us we aren’t living in the Middle Ages. I feel very reassured. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/212 "2010-12-16T16:54:41Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Then lets call it promoting general welfare which falls under the Constitution, not to mention the moral an ethical obligation of society, and the individuals involved. You cannot leave the welfare of a child unable to care for itself, out of the equation when decided what justice is for the individuals involved since that child is now one of those individuals. I think the moral an ethical obligation of the society also applies to the father who did not want the child to be born and was denied the opportunity to prevent the birth. If the law mandated and enforced abortion unless both parents agreed to the birth I would stay stick it to the guy for all he’s worth but as long as he has no choice in the matter he shouldn’t be forced to support his sex partner’s mommy fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/213 "2010-12-16T16:58:05Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I know you have strong feelings about DNA, but if the child and the father don’t KNOW they aren’t related by DNA, and it comes out later (even after the child is an adult), should the child be punished for something that they didn’t do, didn’t know about, and didn’t have any control over? What if they are still loyal and obedient to the family? Should they be cast out based on something that really has nothing to do with their reality at all? I think people’s feelings have to be given a lot of leeway. It would be very unfortunate if a father , upon discovering his child was not really his child, simply didn’t feel the same way and couldn’t get over it, but that wouldn’t make him a bad person. The child too, traumatized by the news, might long to find their biological parent. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/214 "2010-12-16T16:58:05Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Have you ever actually known a child? Grew up in a big extended family and have helped raise many children including my youngest brother whom I had legal guardianship of since birth who incidently grew up to be a wonderful young man without ever having any living person to address as mom or dad. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/215 "2010-12-16T17:03:47Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I think the moral an ethical obligation of the society also applies to the father who did not want the child to be born and was denied the opportunity to prevent the birth. If the law mandated and enforced abortion unless both parents agreed to the birth I would stay stick it to the guy for all he’s worth but as long as he has no choice in the matter he shouldn’t be forced to support his sex partner’s mommy fantasies. The point made repeatedly in every thread about this is that biology dictates that it cannot be perfectly equatable for the people involved. You’re talking about forcing a medical procedure on only one individual as if that’s more equitable. You see he wasn’t denied the opportunity to prevent the birth. He was denied the opportunity by biology to carry the child and so doesn’t have certain choices. How about this. If he insists she has an abortion he must have a vasectomy as well? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/216 "2010-12-16T17:03:53Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think people’s feelings have to be given a lot of leeway. It would be very unfortunate if a father , upon discovering his child was not really his child, simply didn’t feel the same way and couldn’t get over it, but that wouldn’t make him a bad person. The child too, traumatized by the news, might long to find their biological parent. Some of the cases of adoptive parents find them in this situation when they get around the informing the child. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/217 "2010-12-16T17:10:19Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Some of the cases of adoptive parents find them in this situation when they get around the informing the child. I remember two famous cases of adults finding out that their mother was actually their grandmother and their older sister was actually their mother. Bobby Darin was one I think and the other I can’t recall who it was. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/218 "2010-12-16T17:11:08Z")
The bottom line (at least the one that makes the most sense) is that even though it is unfair, it is all we’ve got at this point. 1. Question: If the state is concerned over the child’s necessity for shelter, clothing and food, why is the child support decided on a % and isn’t a flat rate with an option for Dad to provide more as he sees fit (in the case of villa) ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/219 "2010-12-16T17:12:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I remember two famous cases of adults finding out that their mother was actually their grandmother and their older sister was actually their mother. Bobby Darin was one I think and the other I can’t recall who it was. Ted Bundy. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/220 "2010-12-16T17:16:25Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > 1. Question: If the state is concerned over the child’s necessity for shelter, clothing and food, why is the child support decided on a % and isn’t a flat rate with an option for Dad to provide more as he sees fit (in the case of villa) Because the state isn’t **only** concerned with the child’s necessity. It is seeking to minimize the financial impact of a divorce/separation on the child. Who is, in the overwhelming majority of situations, a completely innocent party in the break up of a relationship. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=12)