# Abortion and child support **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985 "2010-12-13T15:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/381 "2010-12-20T11:51:29Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > First, off, I am a woman. And our society’s willlingness to shaft adults in order to pamper babies just sickens me. Yeah, defending the defenseless is pretty reprehensible. > [@](#): > > And it is not unfair to expect the person responsible for the child being in this world to pay for it. I agree. Since that is two people I expect both of them to pay their share. You completely ignore what allowing men an easy out would do for their behavior. You essentially free them of any responsibility for their participation in the risk of pregnancy, pretty much insuring that more men will become the irresponsible spoiled brats you abhor. > [@](#): > > Having consentual sex should not be an excuse to leach money for 18 years. If a woman wants to be paid for sex, she can move where prostitution is legal. Comparing accidental pregnancy to prostitution is an incredibly distorted and ignorant view of reality. > [@](#): > > Actually, what I propose would have the practical solution of reducing the unwanted children problem within in a few years as more women face the cold, hard reality that having a child without the consent of both parties means possibly relying on the old welfare safety net (which really isn’t a safety net at all) You seriously don’t think that occurs to women already? What you’re proposing is that society bear the financial cost so men can have an easy out to avoid the consequences of their choices. Hardly equitable. You seem to think that promoting irresponsible behavior in men will somehow be more than offset by an increase in responsibility from women and society. Then you call that equitable. It isn’t. Financially speaking I do think we should limit the amount women can get on welfare. > [@](#): > > instead of drafting someone else to pay for their little resource sucker. They volunteered when they took the risk knowing the potential consequences. > [@](#): > > I think a legal limit on children being born might be good idea actually. good luck getting that passed. legal requirements like that require a plan of enforcement. I don’t know what China does but it would be interesting to find out. > [@](#): > > Compelling abortions wouldn’t bother me in the least though I think it could be easier done with a little subliminal pressure. Ideally what we should do is make having an unwanted, child that you can’t support such a disgraceful, socially stigmatized act that compulsion would not be needed. You seem perfectly comfortable with taking away people’s choices to enforce your personal view of morality. Good for you. The pressure and the stigma have been in place for years so I think your expectations there are clearly unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/382 "2010-12-20T12:39:02Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > If the woman made the decision to have the baby, a positive decision against the wishes of the father, then shouldn’t she bear more responsibility than him? Why should she bear more responsibility for an outcome that wouldn’t have occurred without the man? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/383 "2010-12-20T14:20:34Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Compelling abortions wouldn’t bother me in the least though I think it could be easier done with a little subliminal pressure. Ideally what we should do is make having an unwanted, child that you can’t support such a disgraceful, socially stigimitized act that compulsion would not be needed. Interesting. So how do you reconcile that with what you said here: > [@How do ultra-orthodox Jews handle the whole "menstruation women" prohibitions?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-do-ultra-orthodox-jews-handle-the-whole-menstruation-women-prohibitions/554640/220): > > As things are the act of iniating physical contact much like that of deciding whether or not to carry a baby to term belongs to the woman as she has a far greater risk in the situation than a man has. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/384 "2010-12-20T14:56:56Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > We seem to be talking at cross purposes. > > Trying not to bring a child into the world, when you know you are not is a position to take proper care of it. I don’t see that as “trying to avoid responsbililty”. Quite the reverse in fact. > > If the “sperm donor” had WANTED as child, then once it came decided “too hard” I would have little sympathy. > > however this is not the case we are (neccesarily) talking about. > > If the woman made the decision to have the baby, a positive decision against the wishes of the father, then shouldn’t she bear more responsibility than him? > > Let’s put it another way, a couple go looking at cars, boyfriend says “don’t want”, the girl says want. She signs up for a loan.\* Because he was there with her he “witesses” the loan. Later he becomes responsible for the payments - would that be fair? > > - Yeah, I know this can never happen in the real world, but please go with the hypothetical. You have made clear in your example the man doesn’t want the child or anything to do with it. What is his role other than a sperm donor then? That’s his sole contribution - the genetic matter. Does the mother bear more responsibility? I’d argue yes. She has custody of the child - he is just being asked to write a check once a month. Hell, he can even set it up automatically. I don’t see how you can not see her as shouldering more responsibility. The car example is, frankly, completely silly. It’s not the way things work. And even if it were, the car doesn’t have legal rights, and isn’t alive, and won’t die if it is left on the street without oil and gas. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/385 "2010-12-20T16:14:46Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Interesting. So how do you reconcile that with what you said here: In an ideal world a woman would have the option to bear the child if she provide for it. Some women can and they are good single mothers. It’s the ones that choose to bear children in situations where they know they can’t afford the child and expect other people who did not approve or consent to their mommy aspirations to pay for it that I have a problem with. They should be held responsible for being idiots and lack of foresight. I see it as no different from me buying a private jet and then trying to collect a tax from everybody else to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/386 "2010-12-20T17:09:11Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I agree. Since that is two people I expect both of them to pay their share. You completely ignore what allowing men an easy out would do for their behavior. You essentially free them of any responsibility for their participation in the risk of pregnancy, pretty much insuring that more men will become the irresponsible spoiled brats you abhor. Hmm. If I get drunk beyond the capacity to consent to sex, but am seduced, do I get an out on child support? Like I said, the talk about responsibility and choice is a red herring. We have decided as a culture that having sex is not an agreement to anything but having sex; we assume that parents will support children because that’s the way it works the vast, vast majority of the time. Morally-speaking, I think the best alternative is a general child-support tax to aid in child support, and abortion-on-demand. This does mean that society ends up paying for children that someone might not be able to afford, but happens anyway if someone without wages to garnish ends up having many children. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/387 "2010-12-20T17:22:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why would you compare it to the cost of an abortion? If a woman terminates a pregnancy, then there is no baby. Once there is ababy, the father is ethically and financially responsible for it. He accepted that responsibility when he came. And why didn’t the woman accept that responsibility when she had consensual sex? Why does she get an extra bite at the apple? Why does she get to make her decisions regarding abortion with the force of law behind her right to force a man to become a father? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/388 "2010-12-20T17:30:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He made the choice to be a father. You keep saying that as if that makes it true. How is that any more true than me saying she made the decision to become a mother when she had sex. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/389 "2010-12-20T17:34:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He knows that pregnancy may result, and he willingly, knowingly assumed that risk. And the woman didn’t assume that risk? Or did the woman only assume the risk of having to make a choice later on? A choice that is colored by the financial health of the biological father. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/390 "2010-12-20T17:36:19Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In an ideal world a woman would have the option to bear the child if she provide for it. Some women can and they are good single mothers. It’s the ones that choose to bear children in situations where they know they can’t afford the child and expect other people who did not approve or consent to their mommy aspirations to pay for it that I have a problem with. They should be held responsible for being idiots and lack of foresight. I see it as no different from me buying a private jet and then trying to collect a tax from everybody else to pay for it. How should they be held responsible? What actions should be taken exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/391 "2010-12-20T17:39:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Abortion does not involve a baby. Well in that case, neither does ejaculating in a vagina. If ejaculating in a vagina = baby then how does fetus != baby? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/392 "2010-12-20T17:53:06Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Oh those poooooooor men. You know that women also live with kids that remind them of a betrayal, right? There are women in areas where abortion is not safe who live with kids who were conceived during a _rape_. I’m not trying to get into a “whose pain is bigger argument,” here. But I have very, very little patience for “men as victims” arguments. > > You don’t unlove a kid you raised. You can’t tell a kid who calls you daddy that you no longer love them like you did. That your love was, in fact, actually pretty conditional. Do you have any, any idea what that does to a kid? How you are very likely going to be handing them an abandonment complex and a bunch of daddy issues that are going to screw up their adult relationships? > > Get over yourself. It’s a bad scene, for sure, and I feel bad for any guy stuck in it. But “cutting off all contact” with a kid you raised for any reason is a cold-hearted and screwed up thing to do. There are things that are bigger than your pride in this world. > > That said, I’m talking about a kid over the age of, say, six. A kid who will remember “the day daddy decided he didn’t love me and didn’t ever want to see me again.” Half the divorces I see result in this sort of dynamic. Daddy finds a new mommy and starts a new family and wants to forget he ever had kids with the old mommy. I’ve seen partners mark the days on their calendar until their kids by a previous marriage turn 18 so they can turn off the spigot. That sort of behaviour is reprehensible. Not wanting to support a child that you never wanted in the first place… a bit less so. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/393 "2010-12-20T18:25:47Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Hmm. If I get drunk beyond the capacity to consent to sex, but am seduced, do I get an out on child support? > > Like I said, the talk about responsibility and choice is a red herring. We have decided as a culture that having sex is not an agreement to anything but having sex; we assume that parents will support children because that’s the way it works the vast, vast majority of the time. > > Morally-speaking, I think the best alternative is a general child-support tax to aid in child support, and abortion-on-demand. > > This does mean that society ends up paying for children that someone might not be able to afford, but happens anyway if someone without wages to garnish ends up having many children. There are men who fathered children in their young teens with older women (i.e., the men were the victims of the horrible statutory rapist) who have been stuck paying child support. Your idea of a general child-support tax is interesting. I suspect it would wipe out a large segment of the anti-abortion movement once they were forced to put their money where their mouths are. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/394 "2010-12-20T18:31:49Z")
> [@martu](#): > > How should they be held responsible? What actions should be taken exactly? They don’t get to extort money from a sex partner for one thing. After that public services for the poor in the United States is rather punishing in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/395 "2010-12-20T18:41:44Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Offering to shake a woman’s hand = something akin to rape for which men should be fired > > Forcing women to have abortions = good and righteous > > I don’t get it. It’s very simple. In the first case, a woman should be able to go out in public without being pressured to touch a man period. In the second case, in this society the decision to bear a child effects considerably more people than just the woman and child and they have a right to voice their opinion. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/396 "2010-12-20T19:17:22Z")
> [@ZPG Zealot](#): > > It’s very simple. In the first case, a woman should be able to go out in public without being pressured to touch a man period. In the second case, in this society the decision to bear a child effects considerably more people than just the woman and child and they have a right to voice their opinion. You realize that society has voiced that opinion by passing laws that require child support, right? And just so we’re clear, shaking a woman’s hand is tantamount to rape, but a [man shooting a woman pregnant with his child](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13255741&postcount=43) to get out of paying her child support should be considered justifiable homicide? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/397 "2010-12-20T19:22:24Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In an ideal world a woman would have the option to bear the child if she provide for it. Some women can and they are good single mothers. It’s the ones that choose to bear children in situations where they know they can’t afford the child and expect other people who did not approve or consent to their mommy aspirations to pay for it that I have a problem with. They should be held responsible for being idiots and lack of foresight. I see it as no different from me buying a private jet and then trying to collect a tax from everybody else to pay for it. But these women aren’t trying to collect from “everyone”–they’re trying to collect from the fathers. I do agree it’s not a great situation, bringing a child into the world if you can’t support it and your sexual partner doesn’t want a child. But to make abortion compulsory in that situation is such a gross violation of a woman’s autonomy. I find it incomprehensible that you think there’s ever a situation where a woman can be forced against her will into having an abortion but you think a man just holding his hand towards a woman means he’s likely to rape or sexually assault her. Surely if you’re this upset over a hand held in a woman’s general vicinity, no matter how you feel about how pampered children are in our society, you’d think that forcible surgery involving someone’s reproductive parts would be worse, no? ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/398 "2010-12-20T19:30:29Z")
It seems that some people in this thread are taking the task of raising a child solo rather lightly. Any slight financial benefits come at a high cost of responsibility, loss of freedom, lack of sleep, and others. I would be curious to hear how many of the anti-support contingent have themselves raised a child (solo or otherwise). It’s a very hard job. I wouldn’t want to raise a child solo even if I were getting paid $1000 or $1500 a month or whatever. Some reward! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/399 "2010-12-20T19:32:19Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > You realize that society has voiced that opinion by passing laws that require child support, right? > > And just so we’re clear, shaking a woman’s hand is tantamount to rape, but a [man shooting a woman pregnant with his child](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13255741&postcount=43) to get out of paying her child support should be considered justifiable homicide? Holy mackerel. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/400 "2010-12-20T19:51:08Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Then lets call it promoting general welfare which falls under the Constitution, not to mention the moral an ethical obligation of society, and the individuals involved. You cannot leave the welfare of a child unable to care for itself, out of the equation when decided what justice is for the individuals involved since that child is now one of those individuals. And perhaps some anti-abortionists feel similarly about the welfare of the fetus. When the convenience of the mother conflicts with the life of the fetus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=21)