# Abortion and child support **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985 "2010-12-13T15:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/401 "2010-12-20T19:56:54Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Once again, if the child is being given shelter clothes and food it would be very hard to determine that a woman is spending the child’s money on themselves. Usually child support covers those basics. It seems a bit arbitrary. Some kids are the genetic progeny of some rich guy and their child support is really really high. Another kid is born to a poor father and he hardly gets any child support at all, in fact, he’s probably on welfare. I can understand the argument for child support after a divorce but in cases of child support from reluctant fathers, I’m not sure how we get there without saying “tough, life isn’t fair but we’ve care about the kid more than you, despite the fact that you didn’t even want thee kid, thats a choice we only give to mothers” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/402 "2010-12-20T19:58:59Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The point made repeatedly in every thread about this is that biology dictates that it cannot be perfectly equatable for the people involved. You’re talking about forcing a medical procedure on only one individual as if that’s more equitable. > > You see he wasn’t denied the opportunity to prevent the birth. He was denied the opportunity by biology to carry the child and so doesn’t have certain choices. > > How about this. If he insists she has an abortion he must have a vasectomy as well? Right, because an abortion is the same thing as a hysterectomy. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/403 "2010-12-20T20:03:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And perhaps some anti-abortionists feel similarly about the welfare of the fetus. When the convenience of the mother conflicts with the life of the fetus. I’m having a tough time believing anyone arguing for less support for children is really anti-abortion and not just in punish the whores mode. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/404 "2010-12-20T20:06:42Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Because the state isn’t **only** concerned with the child’s necessity. It is seeking to minimize the financial impact of a divorce/separation on the child. Who is, in the overwhelming majority of situations, a completely innocent party in the break up of a relationship. And how do you feel that fits into the case of an unwanted pregnancy where the biological father is called on to provide support for the child? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/405 "2010-12-20T20:08:02Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > …If not, is she eligible for welfare? If so that means society as a whole pays the price for the offspring of unwilling fathers who are enabled by law to avoid responsibility for their offspring. Yes, she would be eligible for welfare. But she would have to exercise her choice based on those facts rather than the set of facts that includes child support from an unwilling father. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/406 "2010-12-20T20:10:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I can understand the argument for child support after a divorce but in cases of child support from reluctant fathers, I’m not sure how we get there without saying “tough, life isn’t fair but we’ve care about the kid more than you, despite the fact that you didn’t even want thee kid, thats a choice we only give to mothers” You can’t make child support contingent on whether the child’s parents were married or not - it’s unconstitutional. It’s an Equal Protection violation to treat so-called legitimate and illegtimate children differently in that manner. There’s nothing requiring that states pass any laws regarding child support, but if they do so they can’t deny it to children on the basis of their parent’s marital status. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/407 "2010-12-20T20:18:39Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Did I say choose to get someone pregnant or did I say choose to participate in getting someone pregnant? > > The act was voluntary. You knew the possible consequences. And now you are crying that you shouldn’t have to live up to them. That’s a grown up world you live in. Do we impose this “grown-up” standard on women who want abortions? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/408 "2010-12-20T20:20:40Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > She is not taking the man’s rights away n any form. She is exercising the rights given to her by biology. remember, **biology prohibits that it can ever be fair** or equal. > > And let’s be clear, SHE is not being compensated for having a child. THE CHILD is being cared for by both parents. > > What you’re saying is the child should not expect to be cared for by the father either financially or emotionally, if he decides he doesn’t want to. What you’re saying is that males get to have sex, knowing that it risks pregnancy and have a way to completely avoid any responsibility simply by saying “I didn’t mean to” > > I doubt that kind of arrangement promotes equity Why not? Short of rape, the women can abstain from sex just as readily as the man. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/409 "2010-12-20T20:45:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Do we impose this “grown-up” standard on women who want abortions? Yes we do. If a woman chooses not to have an abortion, and gives birth, there is a child, and both parents are responsible financially for that child. If a woman chooses to have an abortion, there is no child, and neither parent is responsible financially for that non-child. It really isn’t complicated. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/410 "2010-12-20T20:46:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And how do you feel that fits into the case of an unwanted pregnancy where the biological father is called on to provide support for the child? It fit the case of the situation I was addressing. Which seemed a sensible case to be fitting in a response. It isn’t relevant to other situations, including the feasibility of manned exploration of Mars. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/411 "2010-12-20T20:50:09Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > Your argument is a ridiculous assumption. Such as the ridiculous assumption that “anyone who actually had kids, and had a positive relationship with them, would be unlikely to hold that view”. > > Men who have had kids and who have found out that the child wasn’t theirs and their wife/girlfriend cheated on them, have in fact fought in court for the right to walk away with no financial obligations. And they’ve won in some cases, too. So as I said… your argument is a ridiculous assumption. > Ah yes, the old chivalry mentality. > So would your wife/girlfriend. She’d really love you then. > Wasn’t there a Jim Carrey movie based on this mentality? I think you are simply expressing your opinion. If it was me and i had raised a child that was the result of my wife’s infidelity, I might divorce her but I might also want custody of that child. If you found out your children were not your own, would you really love them less? Sure you might love your wife less but would you love your children any less? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/412 "2010-12-20T20:52:10Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Okay, I have a hypothetical (a possible one, but not common, obviously). How about this: > > Peggy and Paul are married. Peggy is involved in a horrible accident and falls into a coma. During her treatment, Paul discovers that Peggy is pregnant. The pregnancy comes to term, the baby is delivered by c-section and miraculously Peggy wakes up a little while later. She’s furious that Paul didn’t abort the baby. He’s repulsed that she thinks he should have. They divorce. Paul gets custody. Should Peggy have to pay child support? > > This is about as close a scenario as I can devise to the real life scenario. For me, yes. Peggy should owe child support for the baby, even though it’s Paul’s “fault” the baby was born. > > Even if you change the scenario to one where Peggy made it clear to Paul she never wanted kids and never wanted to be pregnant and he decided not to abort, she should still owe child support for the baby. Yes, she would, but SHOULD she? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/413 "2010-12-20T20:59:12Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > she should still owe child support for the baby. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes, she would, but SHOULD she? Well, thanks for that super-illuminating post. You really cleared that up. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/414 "2010-12-20T21:03:45Z")
It’s going to take a while, he’s just now halfway through page 7. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/415 "2010-12-20T21:08:24Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Holy mackerel. Incidentally, yeah, no kidding. That’s more or less why I was trying to bow out of the thread - once one party to a debate makes clear that they’re down with murdering pregnant women, the possibility of reaching a mutual understanding of each other’s respective positions becomes vanishingly small. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/416 "2010-12-20T21:09:51Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > It’s going to take a while, he’s just now halfway through page 7. Well, I’m just breathless with anticipation now. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/417 "2010-12-20T21:11:41Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’m having a tough time believing anyone arguing for less support for children is really anti-abortion and not just in punish the whores mode. I’d be surprised if anti-abortionists are arguing against child support. The argument against child support is that women can have abortions. If a woman can’t afford to raise the child alone and has a reluctant father then she should get an abortion and if she still wants to keep the child then that’s her choice, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/418 "2010-12-20T21:16:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If a woman can’t afford to raise the child alone and has a reluctant father then she should get an abortion and if she still wants to keep the child then that’s her choice, isn’t it? If only someone had made this argument. How on earth did we get to page 9 without it? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/419 "2010-12-20T21:24:17Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > You can’t make child support contingent on whether the child’s parents were married or not - it’s unconstitutional. It’s an Equal Protection violation to treat so-called legitimate and illegtimate children differently in that manner. There’s nothing requiring that states pass any laws regarding child support, but if they do so they can’t deny it to children on the basis of their parent’s marital status. As others have pointed out, genetic parenthood is not a requirement for child support. But you make an interesting point. How can we hold fathers responsible for their children born in wedlock and give them a free pas for children born out of wedlock? I mean if you are married and your wife has a child that you don’t want, you’re still on the hook, aren’t you? Hrmm, I’m gonna have to think ab out that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/420 "2010-12-20T21:26:08Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Yes we do. If a woman chooses not to have an abortion, and gives birth, there is a child, and both parents are responsible financially for that child. If a woman chooses to have an abortion, there is no child, and neither parent is responsible financially for that non-child. It really isn’t complicated. Are you just going to entirely ignore the fact that the woman is making her choice at least in some cases, based on the premise that she will be getting child support. What policy rationale is there for giving her this assurance at the expense of the father? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=22)