# Abortion and child support **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985 "2010-12-13T15:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/521 "2010-12-22T18:32:06Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > So carry a plastic bag with you and throw it away in a secure location. > > Or, you know, don’t screw crazy girls. > > Can we throw out some more bizarre, unlikely, far-fetched scenarios to hide the fact that 99.99% of unwanted pregnancies are not caused by malevolent man-hating bitches, but rather careless people. Yeah and most of those pregnancies end up in marraige or abortions. How many unplanned children are born out of wedlock to fathers who didn’t want them? I thought we were limiting our discussion to that universe of pregnancies. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/522 "2010-12-22T18:40:06Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m not comfortable with the blase attitude that abortion should be used as contraception to compensate for men’s irresponsibility. Are we talking about the irresponsibility of not wanting to support your biological unwanted children or the irresponsibility of having sex? > [@](#): > > So even if American women started aborting their unwanted pregnancies to offset men’s lack of accountabilty, this wouldn’t be a cause for celebration. Unwanted pregnancies rarely are. But you seem to want to use child support as some sort of deterrent. > [@](#): > > Abortion isn’t free; it stretches public and private resources. Why would we want to become a society that looks like this? Right because abortion is so much more burdensome on society than an unwanted child. > [@](#): > > This doesn’t address the more alarming fear I have about STIs and HIV. In a previous thread on this subject, I cited evidence that fear of unwanted child support was the main motivator for condom use in young men. Take that fear away and I fucking guarrantee that incidence of STIs/HIV will skyrocket. Free abortion clinics on every corner will not change that. Maybe I’m from a different generation but when I was growing up, women had access to the pill and while you still used condom, people weren’t as militant about it until the AIDS epidemic. > [@](#): > > Those countries are indications of what we don’t want to become, though. Their existence should at least make people question the wisdom of saying, sans evidence, that letting men off the hook leads to better social outcomes. There is no data that supports this. So if there is no evidence either way, why are we choosing the method based on which one will create the greatest deterrent for men from having sex even if it is punitive and infair? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/523 "2010-12-22T18:42:57Z")
> [@villa](#): > > My first talk with my son about sex will include the time honored phrase (from Leviticus, I believe) “you don’t stick your dick in the crazy.” If only there was litmus test but speaking as a man, you frequently don’t find out about the crazy until later. I guess i could have gotten to know them and met their families and stuff before I jumped in the sack with them but that’s not how it works. It fucking amazes me that people who think that abstinence only is a stupid policy when it comes to abortion think its perfectly acceptable when it comes to child support. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/524 "2010-12-22T18:52:49Z")
Damuri Ajashi, I won’t speak for anyone else, but when I see post after post after post by you, I find myself skipping all of them. You keep doing this and you’re repeating things faster posters have already said. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/525 "2010-12-22T18:57:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If only there was litmus test but speaking as a man, you frequently don’t find out about the crazy until later. I guess i could have gotten to know them and met their families and stuff before I jumped in the sack with them but that’s not how it works. Speaking as a man, I tend not to fuck random strangers. It’s a policy that tends to work for me. Kept me STD free too. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It fucking amazes me that people who think that abstinence only is a stupid policy when it comes to abortion think its perfectly acceptable when it comes to child support. No one has suggested abstinence. You are making this up. What people have suggested is that if you have sex, you realize that there are potential consequences. One of those is pregnancy. If a child results from that pregnancy, both parents are responsible for the support of that child. Really what part of this isn’t getting through to you? Both parties decide if they are willing to engage in an activity that carries a risk of pregnancy. Because of unalterable biological fact, the woman has longer to decide if there is to be a pregnancy. But both parties have the choice as to whether to risk pregnancy. If you don’t want a child, there are various options - abstinence is one of them. Non-penetrative sex is another. After that, then you get into a spectrum of choices where the risk of pregnancy increases. Make the choice about which activity fits your desired risk profile. What about that is suggesting abstinence? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/526 "2010-12-22T19:16:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Then > > And THATS why we have abortion. > > She also has the choice for abortion, lets not forget THAT. Lets not forget that the man is at the mercy of the woman’s choice (her whim if you will) the same as the woman is at the mercy of the man’s choice to support the child he may or may not want. > And the woman can get an abortion. > Or she can get an abortion. > Because teh woman can get an abortion. > I wonder how many of those rules were created before abortions were legal and widely available. > Not in a world where abortions are legal. While being so casual about abortions you might consider this > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **you with the face** > I’m not comfortable with the blase attitude that abortion should be used as contraception to compensate for men’s irresponsibility. Abortion is a invasive medical procedure that carries risks of complications and other issues, including future infertility. This includes even non-surgical abortion. So even if American women started aborting their unwanted pregnancies to offset men’s lack of accountability, this wouldn’t be a cause for celebration. Abortion isn’t free; it stretches public and private resources. Why would we want to become a society that looks like this? You speak of abortion as if it’s as easy as taking a pill or putting on a condemn except at the other end. So your hang up seems to be that since this oh so simple step of abortion gives women all the say {in your view} the only fair thing to do is to reverse it and give men all the say thus restoring equity to our society. I remain skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/527 "2010-12-22T19:21:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The unfairness of having periods and enduring childbirth are not legally imposed. > . Why yes we know. The point made a zillion times is that it is the differences in biology that make idealistic equity impossible. Women are given certain choices based on their biology and how procreation works, and even modern choices are relatively new for them. Since you can’t change the biology you can’t make the scenario equitable. All you’ve suggested is that since women can now have abortions let’s give all the power back to men where it was originally. Now that’s progress. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/528 "2010-12-22T19:34:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If only there was litmus test but speaking as a man, you frequently don’t find out about the crazy until later. I guess i could have gotten to know them and met their families and stuff before I jumped in the sack with them but that’s not how it works. > > It fucking amazes me that people who think that abstinence only is a stupid policy when it comes to abortion think its perfectly acceptable when it comes to child support. I agree with **villa**. Now you are just making shit up that nobody argued. So expecting any responsibility from men at all is asking to much as long as women have that easy out of abortion? Men should be able to pick up any chick they can at a bar or party and throw caution to the wind because , hey, it’s not their problem under your master plan. It might occur to you that expecting people, men and women, to be responsible for their actions and choices leads to a better society. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/529 "2010-12-22T19:38:35Z")
I love how women who don’t want to have abortions are basically being ignored by the “men are victims” crowd. The right to choose means the right to choose an abortion OR to choose to carry the pregnancy to term. It isn’t only women who are okay with abortion who get knocked up, and even women who are okay with abortion for other people don’t necessarily want one for themselves. Would I get an abortion? Yes. Is my boyfriend still taking a risk by having sex with me? Yes. I know it’s a non-issue, and he’s confident it’s a vanishingly small risk, but it’s still a risk. Someone else might be pro-life. Is her boyfriend taking a risk by having sex with her? Yes, and it’s a much larger risk. Someone else might be pro-choice but would choose to carry the baby. Someone else might be pro-life but choose to have an abortion when faced with the real situation rather than a pamphlet. Someone else might be pro-life except when there’s a significant fetal abnormality. Someone else might be pro-choice and decide to have an abortion but go to the clinic and panic and realize she can’t do it. Someone else might be pro-choice and would choose an abortion but can’t afford one. A lot of these “surprise” children aren’t really a surprise if the people getting naked would just have a conversation about what will happen if a pregnancy occurs. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/530 "2010-12-22T20:00:25Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > A lot of these “surprise” children aren’t really a surprise if the people getting naked would just have a conversation about what will happen if a pregnancy occurs. There you go with your “men who make rational choices about their sex partners generally don’t end up paying child support for unwanted children” argument. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/531 "2010-12-22T20:03:17Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > There you go with your “men who make rational choices about their sex partners generally don’t end up paying child support for unwanted children” argument. _hangs head_ I’ll do better next time. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/532 "2010-12-22T22:12:35Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > There you go with your “men who make rational choices about their sex partners generally don’t end up paying child support for unwanted children” argument. Couples who made rational choices to use birth control in the pre Roe v. Wade days generally did not wind up with unwanted pregnancies. This did not render abortion rights not worth discussing to most people at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/533 "2010-12-22T22:38:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Damuri Ajashi, I won’t speak for anyone else, but when I see post after post after post by you, I find myself skipping all of them. You keep doing this and you’re repeating things faster posters have already said. Sorry, I cant multi-quote. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/534 "2010-12-22T23:01:28Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Speaking as a man, I tend not to fuck random strangers. It’s a policy that tends to work for me. Kept me STD free too. I don’t either anymore, but we were all young once, and do you believe that it was the threat of paying child support that has kept you std free? > [@](#): > > No one has suggested abstinence. You are making this up. What people have suggested is that if you have sex, you realize that there are potential consequences. One of those is pregnancy. If a child results from that pregnancy, both parents are responsible for the support of that child. Yeah so you are saying if you don’t want to risk paying child support then don’t have sex. How is that NOT suggesting abstinence? > [@](#): > > Really what part of this isn’t getting through to you? The part where you are wrong. You are telling men to keep it in their pants if they don’t want to pay child support. How is that different than telling women not keep their legs shut if they don’t want to get pregnant? > [@](#): > > Both parties decide if they are willing to engage in an activity that carries a risk of pregnancy. Because of unalterable biological fact, the woman has longer to decide if there is to be a pregnancy. Its as much a legal fact as it is a biological one. > [@](#): > > What about that is suggesting abstinence? OK I guess you got me there, the guy can go around getting blow jobs :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/535 "2010-12-22T23:42:10Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > While being so casual about abortions you might consider this > You speak of abortion as if it’s as easy as taking a pill or putting on a condemn except at the other end. > So your hang up seems to be that since this oh so simple step of abortion gives women all the say {in your view} the only fair thing to do is to reverse it and give men all the say thus restoring equity to our society. > > I remain skeptical. I think that caught early enough abortion can be as simple as taking a pill. I understand that ru486 isn’t readily available but I also believe that we should make it readily available. In any event an abortion (at least an early on), is easier and less risky than carrying a baby to term. But otherwise I guess you’re right. My hang up is that the legality and simplicity of an early abortion ultimately puts the choice in the woman’s lap. How does eliminating child support in the case of an unwanted child “reverse” the situation? The woman STILL has the ultimate choice of whether to keep or abort the fetus, she simply doesn’t have the right to rely on child support from an unwilling father. She makes her choice in that light. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/536 "2010-12-22T23:47:17Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Why yes we know. The point made a zillion times is that it is the differences in biology that make idealistic equity impossible. Women are given certain choices based on their biology and how procreation works, and even modern choices are relatively new for them. Since you can’t change the biology you can’t make the scenario equitable. All you’ve suggested is that since women can now have abortions let’s give all the power back to men where it was originally. Now that’s progress. I’m not sure I understand why that “gives all the power back to the men” Doesn’t the woman still have the right to choose whether to have the baby or not? I am suggesting that since the woman have virtually all the power (and I’m not saying that giving birth, or raising children alone is a walk in the park), why do we have to use the coercive power of the state to force an unwilling father to provide child support? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/537 "2010-12-23T00:04:38Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I love how women who don’t want to have abortions are basically being ignored by the “men are victims” crowd. Well I could start with “that’s her choice” I could proceed to “she can give the baby up for adoption” and I can end with “and why is the child support a percentage of income” If we are trying to use child support to encourage certain behaviour, then what sort of behaviour are we encouraging when we make child support a percentage of the man’s income? Perhaps it will make some richer men more careful. Perhaps it will make some women less careful around richer men. > [@](#): > > The right to choose means the right to choose an abortion OR to choose to carry the pregnancy to term. That’s right and whose choice is it? And who is being subjected to the coercive power of the state? > [@](#): > > It isn’t only women who are okay with abortion who get knocked up… > Someone else might be pro-choice and would choose an abortion but can’t afford one. Its still her choice right (I assume that the biological father can pay for the abortion if the mother cannot, otherwise why are we even talking about child support (I also think that planned parenthood has a sliding scale)) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/538 "2010-12-23T00:05:43Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > There you go with your “men who make rational choices about their sex partners generally don’t end up paying child support for unwanted children” argument. I guess I could flip that around and say that women who make rational choices about their sex partners generally don’t end up needing to sue for child support. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/539 "2010-12-23T13:52:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m not sure I understand why that “gives all the power back to the men” Doesn’t the woman still have the right to choose whether to have the baby or not? As it is now, men and women share the responsibility for contraception and the care of children they have with the state and our tax dollars willing to step in when necessary. Under your suggestion men would have no responsibility for contraception or supporting the children they sire. Rather than power, let’s use responsibility. You’re suggesting we shift all the responsibility to women. I can’t see that as reasonable or making things more fair for those involved, the women, the children and society as a whole. It’s what I’ve been saying all along. You can’t make it equitable in any ideal sense because of the biology, all the suggestions offered merely shift the responsibility around and create a system that is less equitable than the one we have. > [@](#): > > I am suggesting that since the woman have virtually all the power (and I’m not saying that giving birth, or raising children alone is a walk in the park), why do we have to use the coercive power of the state to force an unwilling father to provide child support? because the alternatives are even worse, and that’s been explained to you repeatedly. I guess it will just take time to sink in. Earlier I broke it into three sections , 1. conception, 2.pregnancy, and 3.childbirth and rearing, Right now men have equal responsibility in stage one and stage three, but not in stage 2, because of the biology. You’re suggesting that because women have the choice, and the responsibility in stage two, they should bear all the responsibility in one and three as well, and men bear none. They get to have all their sex they can manage with no concerns about contraception or the welfare of their children. I don’t see any way that is equitable to those involved or an improvement for society in general. While you recognize that giving a birth and child rearing are no walk in the park you’re also treating abortion as if it’s a very minor thing, and paying child support as if it’s a gigantic unfair burden. Remember, men can and do choose to just send a check, which represents their share, and take on no other responsibilities of child rearing. In those cases the woman is still , by far, bearing much more of the burden. You’re suggesting she should bear even more, or the state {taxpayers in general} should bear the father’s portion. Any attempt to try and give men some choice equal to termination only shifts the responsibility , allowing men to be essentially responsibility free, while women, society, bear more, and children have less opportunity for support. Making men less responsible for their actions in procreation doesn’t make it more equitable or promote a better society. If you can’t see it now further posting isn’t going to help. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/540 "2010-12-23T13:54:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I guess I could flip that around and say that women who make rational choices about their sex partners generally don’t end up needing to sue for child support. The point being that the responsibility to make responsible choices about contraception should be shared, while you’re suggesting men should have none. See any equity in that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=28)