# Abortion and child support **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985 "2010-12-13T15:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/661 "2011-01-06T17:02:35Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I think a pre-pregnancy contract has a lot more chance of passing muster than the other ideas proposed in this thread. It’s not that much different than a pre-nup and ensures that both parties are on the same page. Plus, it’s the only arrangement that I can think of that’s fair to both men and women, with little cost to society. > > And yet wackjob ideas like **ZPG** ’s are what we’re given to argue against. Is there any wonder policy on this is not likely to change any time soon? It is a question of defaults. Do we make the default: Men pay child support for any child born out of wedlock unless they contract out of it beforehand -OR- Do we make the default: Men may elect out of supporting any child born out of wedlock if they do so within 24 hours of being informed of the pregnancy In a society where birth control is widely available and where sex outside of marriage is almost exclusively for pleasure and not procreation, it is not obvious to me that the first default is better than the second one. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/662 "2011-01-06T17:11:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So the woman ignores pre-natal care all for the sake of tricking a guy into paying child support? Is that what you are proposing? Now where did I say that? Oh, I see. Maybe you don’t know what HIPAA is. A woman could still receive pre-natal care and still keep her pregnancy a secret from her boyfriend. But you know this right? > [@](#): > > You do not determine how taxes are spent, the elected representatives do. And any elected representative who determined that the state would step in to pay child support in place of a man who didn’t want to do so, would soon find himself out of a job. So yeah, I do determine how taxes are spent. The word “elected” is the operative word. > [@](#): > > We have ALWAYS provided state support for children that needed it. ALWAYS. They don’t live in the lap of luxury but we support them. Gladly or not, we will step up and pay the bill in those situations. But we would never _choose_ to pay more than we have to. There’s a reason why we have agencies dedicated to tracking down deadbeat parents and garnishing their wages. That’s because we know that if we didn’t do that, we’d have more children on the state’s dime. _And we don’t want that_. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/663 "2011-01-06T17:43:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Who has taken a punish the slut mentality? I think that anyone that says that men are responsible for child support as soon as they ejaculate in a vagina has a “punish the male slut” mentality but in a thread where noone has proposed limiting abortion rights, how has anyone proposed “punish the slut”? Once again you are making things up. Why am I not surprised. No one supports making anyone “responsible for child support as soon as they ejaculate in a vagina.” You know why? Because there is no baby as soon as they ejaculate in a vagina. Try being honest in this discussion, it will make it so much easier. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/664 "2011-01-06T17:44:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why would anyone WANT to see that? Ask **ZPG Zealot** not me. I can’t comment on her motivations in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/665 "2011-01-06T17:47:19Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > And see, I’d rather not a single person involved was punished at all. > As it stands now though, the only ‘punishment’ comes to the father (and I’d wager, in some cases to the child) That is, unless you are going to classify birthing a child as punishment. OK - I see the problem here. You still, after 14 or so pages, have not the first idea how child support works. You honestly think the custodial parent isn’t responsible for providing support to the child. Well, they are. It isn’t the non-custodial father held responsible for the entire upkeep of the child. Both parents are held responsible. Because (in the situation we are discussing) the father is non-custodial, he is required to provide his support in terms of a financial contribution. That financial contribution is not expected to be the sole source of support for the child. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/666 "2011-01-06T18:53:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What makes you think these cases would remain rare if we allowed men to opt out? A woman who found out she was pregnant would have to be a fool if she notified the father of her pregnancy. It would always be in her best interest to simply wait until it was too late to get an abortion before letting him know. Actually, no because then the father’s “grace period” would begin from the time he was legally informed of the pregnancy. If he signs the paper abortion severing himself of all parental rights and responsibilities, he’s free, she’s stuck with her lack of preparation. It would be to the mother’s advantage to inform him immediately, so that she can best access the situation and make a good decision. If she doesn’t choose to do, well, there is an old saying “The lack of planning on your part, does not constiute an emergency on my part.” ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/667 "2011-01-06T18:58:35Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Are you seriously advocating that your children would be better served by having their care taken over by strangers, while you’re at work? Most of the well-behaved children I know were raised by people other than their parents such as nannies, day-care workers, or distant (and largely unconcerned) relatives. So yeah, I think it’s a much better idea to let strangers (especially strangers trained to care for and educate children) than a mother who cannot be bothered to find a willing partner before creating a child. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/668 "2011-01-06T19:05:14Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Yes you are. It isn’t the mother she wants to see penniless, but the child. The intention is to ensure the child is as badly off as possible. Actually the intention is to see that the child not be born into poverty. Women realizing when they cannot afford to support a child and choosing not to continue a pregnancy is the best solution and the most fair solution. As far as the mother’s financial situation, I don’t think she should be allowed to steal money from the father end of statement. If she wants to be paid for having sex, she should go where prostitution is legal or marry a person on the understood terms that they provide financial support for sexual access. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/669 "2011-01-06T19:07:40Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Most of the well-behaved children I know were raised by people other than their parents such as nannies, day-care workers, or distant (and largely unconcerned) relatives. So yeah, I think it’s a much better idea to let strangers (especially strangers trained to care for and educate children) than a mother who cannot be bothered to find a willing partner before creating a child. Were _you_ raised by your parents? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/670 "2011-01-06T19:23:16Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > a mother who cannot be bothered to find a willing partner before creating a child. Since she ain’t creating a child on her own and since we aren’t talking about rape, she’s sure enough finding a willing partner. And he’s sure enough not a victim if I say I want him to pay for his orgasms rather than me, a taxpayer, paying for them. Now, I’m willing to pick up the slack because I think kids should be guaranteed a minimum standard of living and unlike you I don’t try to defend killing people to get out of paying. I’m a member of a society and part of the cost of being in society is paying taxes and caring for my fellow citizens. Men are a member of society, too, and part of their cost of being in society is paying for their own sexual habits. Women aren’t the only ones who can suffer consequences from having sex. Men get to share the burden, and get off easy because it’s only money. So, spin your fantasies about killing children and pregnant women, about loving parents causing sociopathy (though how one could distinguish sociopathy from half of your statements is frankly beyond me), and about those lying whores getting what’s coming to them all you want and it won’t change anything. And with that, I think I’ll give up on this particular thread lest I get creeped out further. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/671 "2011-01-06T21:18:45Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Were _you_ raised by your parents? I was raised by my extended family. I would say the biggest influence was my maternal aunt and one of my paternal cousins. I’ve dislike my mother since as early as I can remember, but most people with I.Qs above room termperature dislike her company. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/672 "2011-01-06T21:54:50Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I could live with that. As long as he got a vasectomy at the same time. This would balance out the fact that one man can get quite a few women pregnant in a very short period of time. He gets to opt out of ONE child support obligation, but then he doesn’t get to make any more babies, ever. And no, he’s not allowed to bank his sperm before getting snipped. I’ve read a lot threads on this debate, but this idea takes it to a new level. I love it! ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/673 "2011-01-07T02:20:03Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Once again you are making things up. Why am I not surprised. No one supports making anyone “responsible for child support as soon as they ejaculate in a vagina.” > > You know why? > > Because there is no baby as soon as they ejaculate in a vagina. > > . Er…sorry but yes they do. The moment that sperm is there, the rest of the equation is out of the “father’s” hands. Any decisions from that point on rest solely with the mother. The “father” cannot force her to do anything from that point on, so the moment he cums, he is responsible, should a child eventuate. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/674 "2011-01-07T05:57:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Now where did I say that? I was asking because your premise was that we could never tell whether a woman knew she was pregnant in time to make the abortion decision so a woman could pretend she didn’t know she was pregnant and get around the notice rules, right? How is she going to pretend she didn’t know she was pregnant if she has been getting pre-natal care? > [@](#): > > Oh, I see. Maybe you don’t know what HIPAA is. A woman could still receive pre-natal care and still keep her pregnancy a secret from her boyfriend. But you know this right? No, I’m not that familiar with HIPAA. Would HIPAA prevent a doctor from divulging whether a woman was a patient and the dates when the woman had appintments if he was subpoenaed for the information? Can the law be amended allow for such disclosure? Ultimately, what is your point? That a woman can evade the rules through fraud and deceit? Pffft, the fact that people can commit fraud or break the law, is that usually a convincing argument? > [@](#): > > And any elected representative who determined that the state would step in to pay child support in place of a man who didn’t want to do so, would soon find himself out of a job. So yeah, I do determine how taxes are spent. The word “elected” is the operative word. The issue wasn’t whether that elected official would pass the law that would allow the man to opt out, the question was whether that elected official would support the child once the man had in fact opted out and the woman had the baby anyways without the means to support it. > [@](#): > > But we would never _choose_ to pay more than we have to. There’s a reason why we have agencies dedicated to tracking down deadbeat parents and garnishing their wages. That’s because we know that if we didn’t do that, we’d have more children on the state’s dime. _And we don’t want that_. What does that have to do with anything? If we passed the law saying a father could opt out, would we or wouldn’t we support the child if the mother decided to give birth anyway even though the father opted out and she could not support the child on her own? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/675 "2011-01-07T06:03:47Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Once again you are making things up. Why am I not surprised. I don’t know maybe because you are wrong? > [@](#): > > No one supports making anyone “responsible for child support as soon as they ejaculate in a vagina.” > > You know why? > > Because there is no baby as soon as they ejaculate in a vagina. Are you under the impression that I was trying to say that men were responsible for child support for an unfertilized egg or for semen in a woman’s uterus? You were here when the argument was made that the man’s choice was made at ejaculation, that is when his responsibility was created to support any child that might be born. > [@](#): > > Try being honest in this discussion, it will make it so much easier. Try looking past your blind rage and stop assuming that everyone is lying or has some nefarious motives. I don’t recall calling anyone on your side of the debate a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/676 "2011-01-07T06:05:25Z")
> [@villa](#): > > OK - I see the problem here. You still, after 14 or so pages, have not the first idea how child support works. > > You honestly think the custodial parent isn’t responsible for providing support to the child. > > Well, they are. It isn’t the non-custodial father held responsible for the entire upkeep of the child. Both parents are held responsible. Because (in the situation we are discussing) the father is non-custodial, he is required to provide his support in terms of a financial contribution. That financial contribution is not expected to be the sole source of support for the child. The mother can have an abortion, the father cannot. Its hard to analogize the “punishment” of deciding to have a baby with the “punishment” of being forced to pay a percentage of your income in child support. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/677 "2011-01-07T06:07:34Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Actually, no because then the father’s “grace period” would begin from the time he was legally informed of the pregnancy. If he signs the paper abortion severing himself of all parental rights and responsibilities, he’s free, she’s stuck with her lack of preparation. It would be to the mother’s advantage to inform him immediately, so that she can best access the situation and make a good decision. If she doesn’t choose to do, well, there is an old saying “The lack of planning on your part, does not constiute an emergency on my part.” What would you do about those situations where a woman genuinely did not realize she was pregnant until she was well into her second trimester or later? There are not a lot of doctors that will perform discretionary abortions at that stage, or at least the access if fairly limited. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/678 "2011-01-07T06:11:15Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by elbows > > Are you seriously advocating that your children would be better served by having their care taken over by strangers, while you’re at work? > > Most of the well-behaved children I know were raised by people other than their parents such as nannies, day-care workers, or distant (and largely unconcerned) relatives. So yeah, I think it’s a much better idea to let strangers (especially strangers trained to care for and educate children) than a mother who cannot be bothered to find a willing partner before creating a child. I didn’t even notice that sentence from elbows. WOW. So working moms are short changing their kids? That couldn’t be what they meant. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/679 "2011-01-07T06:20:28Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Since she ain’t creating a child on her own and since we aren’t talking about rape, she’s sure enough finding a willing partner. And he’s sure enough not a victim if I say I want him to pay for his orgasms rather than me, a taxpayer, paying for them. So, this is the point I was trying to make earlier about the link that has been expressed between ejaculation and child support. > [@](#): > > Now, I’m willing to pick up the slack because I think kids should be guaranteed a minimum standard of living and unlike you I don’t try to defend killing people to get out of paying. I’m a member of a society and part of the cost of being in society is paying taxes and caring for my fellow citizens. Men are a member of society, too, and part of their cost of being in society is paying for their own sexual habits. Women aren’t the only ones who can suffer consequences from having sex. Men get to share the burden, and get off easy because it’s only money. I feel like we keep forgetting that the woman can get an abortion. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/680 "2011-01-07T12:35:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, I’m not that familiar with HIPAA. Would HIPAA prevent a doctor from divulging whether a woman was a patient and the dates when the woman had appintments if he was subpoenaed for the information? Can the law be amended allow for such disclosure? Not easily. We take medical privacy very seriously over here. Again, making society go through a whole lot of changes and jump through a lot of hoops–and for whom? deadbeat dads. Ha!–is never going to work for these so-called simple solutions to a biological inequality. It’s stupid and fanciful; no one can take these ideas seriously. > [@](#): > > Ultimately, what is your point? That a woman can evade the rules through fraud and deceit? Pffft, the fact that people can commit fraud or break the law, is that usually a convincing argument? My point is that woman aren’t stupid. Neither are men. Your solution to men who don’t find out about pregnancy until an abortion is too late is to have the government step in and support those kids instead. So why would any man admitting to knowing about a pregnancy then–wanted or unwanted–when they know that all they have to do is say it’s unwanted and the woman didn’t tell him, please Uncle Sam take care of it? What you will end up is a whole bunch of kids being supported by the government who otherwise wouldn’t be. From a public policy standpoint, this is dead in the water. > [@](#): > > The issue wasn’t whether that elected official would pass the law that would allow the man to opt out, the question was whether that elected official would support the child once the man had in fact opted out and the woman had the baby anyways without the means to support it. But to have the ability to “opt out” there has to be a legal mechanism put in place for that. That means laws will have to change. No politician who wants to continue to work would put forth legislation to allow that to happen. > [@](#): > > What does that have to do with anything? If we passed the law saying a father could opt out, would we or wouldn’t we support the child if the mother decided to give birth anyway even though the father opted out and she could not support the child on her own? Lol. You act as though the passing such a law should be treated as an afterthought. My point all along is that that an opt out law would never be passed. So everything after that is moot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=35)