# Abortion and child support **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985 "2010-12-13T15:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/701 "2011-01-12T17:43:34Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > _Everyone_ needs to be careful. People need to control what they can control for, and both men and women can control conception pretty darn well if they really choose to. So what we are talking about here is where both people either choose not to control conception or are actively seeking conception. The whole “she tricked me!” scenario that so much of this debate is about is a fake one that basically never happens. I’m not positing that unwanted pregnancies only come from women who trick men into impregnanting them. I think it happens in all sorts of situations and when it happens, the woman can get an abortion regardless of whether or not the father would like to have the child. The father has no choice after the pregnancy occurs. > [@](#): > > What does happen is people choose not to use birth control. Thus, both sides take responsibility. Not if the woman chooses to get an abortion. > [@](#): > > Again, the purpose of keeping abortion legal is not to provide women with a “free pass.” It is to make sure you have the right to make medical decisions about your body. I don’t find it relevant to child support. So you think the right to an abortion is purely (or even largely) based on medical concerns and not things like derailing your life? The Guttmacher institute has done studies on the reasons people have abortions. Do you know where “medical” ranks? The reason for abortions is so that women don’t have to have children they don’t want, men on the other hand have no say in whether they will become fathers after the pregnancy occurs. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/702 "2011-01-12T17:44:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its all a matter of defaults. You can contract around anything, the question is how do you craft defaults. If you have some reason why your default is better than my default, I’d like to hear it. I have plenty of reasons why my default is better. It gives additional incentives for men to be invested in safe sex. It leads to less children in foster care or otherwise supported by the state. It gives less protection to men who decide to start a family and then get bored after a few years and ditch their kids (a very common scenario, and the one that child support most commonly addresses.) What are the advantages to your default? The only one I can think of is that “It allows me to get laid without having to deal with the woman’s reaction when I tell her there is no way in hell I’ll be there for her if she gets knocked up.” I guess there is also “It protects men who are in a situation that never happens.” Sorry, I don’t see this as a huge social good. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/703 "2011-01-12T17:48:12Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > But this is what will happen. You’re saying that you can’t imagine how we can craft a law that give men an out BEFORE birth that will not somehow give them an out AFTER birth? > [@](#): > > The number of men who take basic precautions and still knock up a woman who refuses to abort is somewhere around .0000001%. It is a non-factor. Yeah, so? > [@](#): > > The number of people who willingly have kids and then decide at some point later that they would rather not support them is pretty damn high. I know quite a few myself. My own father is among them. This happens all the time. Yeah, and we’re nopt talking about those cases, we are talking about saying you won’t support a child BEFORE it is born. I think you may be conflating the speicif situation we are talking about ehre with child support generally. I think we all agree that a father cannot financially abandon a child that they wanted after it is born. > [@](#): > > You may not be intending to serve the latter, but that’s who this law will practically serve. To protect a basically non-existant population of hapless guys, you will be making it easier for millions of deadbeats who like having their spawn out there but don’t want to stick with it when the going gets tough. Once again, I am 99.9999999% sure taht I can craft a law that gives guys an out before birth without giving them an out after birth. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/704 "2011-01-12T17:49:21Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Could someone please explain to me what parental agreements have jack all to do with the well being of child? > > The child didn’t have any say in coming into the world, why shouldn’t the parties responsible have to support the kid? > > The child is a 3rd party being unjustly injured by not being supported. The government doesn’t disappear when an unwanted child is born. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/705 "2011-01-12T17:50:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > ISo you think the right to an abortion is purely (or even largely) based on medical concerns and not things like derailing your life? Legally? Yes. It is based on the right to privacy. Hands off my body and all that. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/706 "2011-01-12T18:00:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If you have some reason why your default is better than my default, I’d like to hear it. Because regardless of what you think the default assumption about sex _should_ be, the _reality_ is that sex carries the risk of reproduction. Every adult should knows this. I’m in favor of a society that holds both men and women responsible for the offspring they create, by default. If you make the default be that no one is legally responsible for their children, in effect you’re making it harder for people to be responsible. If we made it legal for people to drive cars without a license, but still allowed people to take a test and get licensed if they wanted to, do you _really_ think people would give up their Saturdays to stand in line at the DMV anymore? Human behavior what it is, I think not. I see no pressing reason why people who _want_ to be parents should be made to go through the hurdle of signing notarized paperwork. Why not make put the burden of bureaucracy on those who don’t want to be parents yet still want to engage in behavior that puts them at risk of a pregnancy? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/707 "2011-01-12T18:22:17Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I have plenty of reasons why my default is better. It gives additional incentives for men to be invested in safe sex. It leads to less children in foster care or otherwise supported by the state. It gives less protection to men who decide to start a family and then get bored after a few years and ditch their kids (a very common scenario, and the one that child support most commonly addresses.) My default gives women an extra incentive to be invested in safe sex. The evidence provided in this thread proves that there is a 'marginal" CORRELATION between the enfiorcement of child support laws and the rate of unwanted pregnancies. This correlation occured contemporaneously with the discovery of AIDS. I don’t think that you can automatically assume that better birth control was the result of better child support enforcement rather than the fear of getting AIDS. But I agree that child support probably reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies at least a little bit but I am not really concerned with that marginal additional burden on the state because child we are talking about 7% increase in the rate of unwanted pregnancies when child support laws were only loosely enforced but the rate of abortion increases when the women don’t believe that they can get economic support raising a child ([www.nawrs.org/Papers/CrowleyEtAlEffects.pdf.pdf](http://www.nawrs.org/Papers/CrowleyEtAlEffects.pdf.pdf)). The study is not perfect but it does a better job of taking other factors into account when explaining the correlation between child support and abortion. Neither effect is particularly pronounced but just like increased child support enforcement dissuades unwanted pregnancies, lower child support enforcement encourages abortion. > [@](#): > > What are the advantages to your default? The only one I can think of is that “It allows me to get laid without having to deal with the woman’s reaction when I tell her there is no way in hell I’ll be there for her if she gets knocked up.” I guess there is also “It protects men who are in a situation that never happens.” Sorry, I don’t see this as a huge social good. The main advantage is that it is more equitable. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/708 "2011-01-12T18:26:00Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Legally? Yes. It is based on the right to privacy. Hands off my body and all that. Did you read the rest of my post? The REASON people get abortions almost never have anything to do with medical reasons. By the way I don’t think roe v wade said “hands off my body” otherwise states would not be able to outlaw elective third trimester abortions. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/709 "2011-01-12T18:38:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You’re saying that you can’t imagine how we can craft a law that give men an out BEFORE birth that will not somehow give them an out AFTER birth? I’m saying that men will take that “out” before birth by default, because it’d be stupid not to. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/710 "2011-01-12T18:40:21Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Yes, I think this is true. There are a few things to keep in mind about **ZPG Zealot** when engaging in this kind of discussion with her. First, she hates children and doesn’t value their existence at all. Second, she resents people who DO value children because those people have the temerity to bring them into the world, where ZPG doesn’t want them to be. Third, she curiously seems to believe that it’s mostly women who value children, and that if it were left up to men, she’d live in a blissful world where children don’t exist. Ergo, she kind of hates women, as well. > > Once you realize all of this about her, her arguments start to make a little more sense. I hate people who make gods out of children and use them as excuses to abuse other adults. I greatly resent and actively fight against the attitude that children and adults connected to them are more entitled to goods, services, etc. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/711 "2011-01-12T18:50:12Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Could someone please explain to me what parental agreements have jack all to do with the well being of child? > > The child didn’t have any say in coming into the world, why shouldn’t the parties responsible have to support the kid? > > The child is a 3rd party being unjustly injured by not being supported. Because in some cases one of those parties isn’t responsible for the kid being in the world. They had no intention of the child existing. They didn’t want a child, but the mother insisted. Having consentual sex is not an excuse to rob someone for 18 years. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/712 "2011-01-12T18:57:49Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Again, this all depends on what you are calling a ‘child’ See that’s the thing. It doesn’t matter when something becomes a child (I assume you’re talking about the when life starts argument). When ever it becomes a child it has needs that are no fault of it’s own, but caused solely by the actions of both parents. Ahh but you might say, one parent could do something to mitigate those needs. But that’s irrelevant. Say you and someone get in a bar room brawl. Grappling, you both fall over and smash a table. As you get up you point out to the bar owner the person you were fighting could have directed your inertia away from the table, so is solely responsible. Should the bar tender bill the other person or both of you equally for the replacement table? The child is just like the bar tender. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/713 "2011-01-12T18:58:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Because regardless of what you think the default assumption about sex _should_ be, the _reality_ is that sex carries the risk of reproduction. Every adult should knows this. > > I’m in favor of a society that holds both men and women responsible for the offspring they create, by default. If you make the default be that no one is legally responsible for their children, in effect you’re making it harder for people to be responsible. _snip_ lol, if this were really your default then there would be no abortion option, period. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/714 "2011-01-12T19:03:26Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’m saying that men will take that “out” before birth by default, because it’d be stupid not to. Nonsense. As I have said before, if that were true, only women would try to adopt children. If a man wants to be a father, wants the child to be born and knows that unless he agrees to support it the woman will have an abortion, he will rush to sign the necessary paperwork legally assuring the mother that he is committed for child support. If he wants to be part of the child’s life, he will rush to have his name on the birth certificate as otherwise the mother could deny him all contact. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/715 "2011-01-12T19:05:22Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Because in some cases one of those parties isn’t responsible for the kid being in the world. They had no intention of the child existing. They didn’t want a child, but the mother insisted. Having consentual sex is not an excuse to rob someone for 18 years. Supporting your child, the child you’re responsible for existing, is theft? That’s amazing, just wow. Children are a potential result of sex. I could use your argument to justify drunk driving. After all do drunk drivers intend to get in an accident? Should they really be responsible for choosing to get behind the wheel? News flash, actions have potential consequences. Don’t like it? Use contraceptives to lesson the odds, or take better care of where you stick it in. Bring a life into the world and that life is your responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/716 "2011-01-12T19:11:19Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > See that’s the thing. It doesn’t matter when something becomes a child (I assume you’re talking about the when life starts argument). When ever it becomes a child it has needs that are no fault of it’s own, but caused solely by the actions of both parents. > > Ahh but you might say, one parent could do something to mitigate those needs. But that’s irrelevant. Say you and someone get in a bar room brawl. Grappling, you both fall over and smash a table. As you get up you point out to the bar owner the person you were fighting could have directed your inertia away from the table, so is solely responsible. > > Should the bar tender bill the other person or both of you equally for the replacement table? The child is just like the bar tender. Your analogy would only hold if you pushed a guy into the table’s direction (and 9 months later he fell into it) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/717 "2011-01-12T19:35:49Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Your analogy would only hold if you pushed a guy into the table’s direction (and 9 months later he fell into it) Why 9 months specifically? Are you saying it would be invalid if he fell into it 3 months later? What about a few years later? Some people don’t find out they have kids right away. My analogy holds regardless of time frame anyway. You participate in table destroying brawl, and you’re responsible in part for the tables that brawl destroys. Even if someone could mitigate the results of your actions, they’re still your actions that you chose, and other people have no obligation to you. You have no right to expect someone to undergo a medical procedure to get you out of your shared screw up, and the child is an innocent, bar tender-like, 3rd party that your actions have made you responsible for. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/718 "2011-01-12T19:39:10Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Why 9 months specifically? Are you saying it would be invalid if he fell into it 3 months later? What about a few years later? Some people don’t find out they have kids right away. > My analogy holds regardless of time frame anyway. You participate in table destroying brawl, and you’re responsible for tables that brawl destroys. You have no right to expect someone to undergo a medical procedure to get you out of your screw up. Ok, he could fall into 3 months later, or ten years? So what? The fact remains that given 3 months time, the man who fell into the table had ample time to change the fact that he would fall into the table. Why would you hold the other person responsible? I am in no way advocating forcing a medical procedure on anyone. However since that choice lies solely with the potential mother, she can also absolve the potential father of any future monies. (or she can have him pay for that medical procedure) (IF she so chooses) ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/719 "2011-01-12T20:42:09Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I hate people who make gods out of children and use them as excuses to abuse other adults. I greatly resent and actively fight against the attitude that children and adults connected to them are more entitled to goods, services, etc. Well, most people believe that we’re more obligated to help & protect people who can’t help themselves, than we are to help and protect those who can. I guess some of us don’t believe that, but it seems kinda strange to me. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/720 "2011-01-12T22:02:27Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Bring a life into the world and that life is your responsibility. An ejaculation doesn’t bring a life into the world. It takes many months of incubation which is at the discretation of the mother. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=37)