# Abortion and child support **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985 "2010-12-13T15:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/741 "2011-01-14T22:31:05Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You want an honest answer? IMHO it’s because some of the lawyers who represent unwed mothers in paternity cases have Mercredes payments to make. There are a lot of ways for lawyers to make their car payments. This is more than that, this is punishing men for having sex, something that would be unthinkable to do to women. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/742 "2011-01-15T06:45:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, its never been addressed despite the fact that one of the primary arguments for child support of unwanted babies is so that taxpayers don’t have to pay for them. It’s a completely different argument to the one of whether there is a responsibility to a child you create. There’s an understandable (though false) argument that child support payments should be a flat amount. But that’s different to the sociopathic view that a man should be allowed to walk away completely from his responsibility completely. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/743 "2011-01-15T16:49:01Z")
> [@villa](#): > > It’s a completely different argument to the one of whether there is a responsibility to a child you create. There’s an understandable (though false) argument that child support payments should be a flat amount. But that’s different to the sociopathic view that a man should be allowed to walk away completely from his responsibility completely. Why should a man be allowed to walk away completely from his responsibility to a fetus or child he didn’t want created? Because as long as abortion is safe and legal a woman can walk into a clinic and walk away completely free of any responsibility to a fetus she didn’t want created. It’s simple fairness, not sociopathy. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/744 "2011-01-15T18:54:23Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Why should a man be allowed to walk away completely from his responsibility to a fetus or child he didn’t want created? Because as long as abortion is safe and legal a woman can walk into a clinic and walk away completely free of any responsibility to a fetus she didn’t want created. It’s simple fairness, not sociopathy. Abortion = not an option for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/745 "2011-01-15T19:03:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, its never been addressed despite the fact that one of the primary arguments for child support of unwanted babies is so that taxpayers don’t have to pay for them. It was addressed by me back on page 11 in post [550](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13288104&postcount=550): > [@pravnik](#): > > You’re changing the subject. The debate is over whether men should be allowed to opt of paying child support _altogether_. You’re debating what the payment rate should be. Whether the law should require a flat rate or an income based rate is a subject that could be reasonably debated, but that’s a matter for a different thread. And again on page 12 in post [569](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13316745&postcount=569): > [@pravnik](#): > > The two questions are related in that they both have to do with child support, but that’s it. In a thread about whether or not men should be able to opt out of parental rights and obligations _altogether_, the question of whether child support should be based on income or a flat rate _if they aren’t allowed to do so_ is off-topic. If you want to debate that, by all means start a thread on it. So again, if you want to debate whether a flat rate or an income based rate would be more equitable, great. That is a topic that could be debated. Since the OP is about allowing men to opt out of child support completely, that debate is off-topic here. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/746 "2011-01-15T20:24:34Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Abortion = not an option for everyone. Then those individuals need to reframe from penis in vagina sex. Also, I’m curious how many of those abortion is not an option for everyone people feel so out of Judeo-Christian or Islamic religious convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/747 "2011-01-15T22:17:25Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Then those individuals need to reframe from penis in vagina sex. No, you see, according to SDMB wisdom, that advice only applies to men. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/748 "2011-01-16T16:12:30Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > No, you see, according to SDMB wisdom, that advice only applies to men. Yes, I’ve noted that ethical blindspot too. I sometimes wonder if some women aren’t using the idea of forcing men to pay child support form children they don’t want as some sort of cultural payback for the centuries when women had no choice but to bear children they didn’t want. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/749 "2011-01-16T16:15:44Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Why should a man be allowed to walk away completely from his responsibility to a fetus or child he didn’t want created? Because as long as abortion is safe and legal a woman can walk into a clinic and walk away completely free of any responsibility to a fetus she didn’t want created. It’s simple fairness, not sociopathy. I guess it hasn’t occurred to you that the child is the innocent party here. Everything else I have to say I’ll say in the pit thread on you.l ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/750 "2011-01-16T16:25:40Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I guess it hasn’t occurred to you that the child is the innocent party here. > Everything else I have to say I’ll say in the pit thread on you.l The child is basically a Macguffin in this situation, a tool being used by the mother (or in extremely rare cases a custodial father). It’s “innocence” (and I abhore that word in regard to children, we are all born sociopaths and become human as we learn about ethics) is irrelevant. It isn’t entitled to anything from its biological parent unless that parent consented to it being born. Furthermore, beyond food, shelter and basic safety, I have always wondered where the idea that children were entitled to anything from their parents came from other than the brats as gods brigade need an exuse for robbing adults to spoil children. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/751 "2011-01-17T05:52:45Z")
> [@villa](#): > > It’s a completely different argument to the one of whether there is a responsibility to a child you create. There’s an understandable (though false) argument that child support payments should be a flat amount. But that’s different to the sociopathic view that a man should be allowed to walk away completely from his responsibility completely. When one of the arguments supporting the current situation is that there would otherwise be an increased burden to the state, then I think it appropriate to bring up the percentage of pay issue. How is it sociopathic to say that a man who doesn’t want to have children shouldn’t be forced to have them. Would it help if we made men pay for the abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/752 "2011-01-17T05:53:45Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Abortion = not an option for everyone. How so? If abortion illegal somewhere in the United States? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/753 "2011-01-17T05:55:04Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > It was addressed by me back on page 11 in post [550](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13288104&postcount=550): > > And again on page 12 in post [569](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13316745&postcount=569): > So again, if you want to debate whether a flat rate or an income based rate would be more equitable, great. That is a topic that could be debated. Since the OP is about allowing men to opt out of child support completely, that debate is off-topic here. Thanks for the junior modding but I don’t think its off topic when people keep bringing up the “burden to the state” as a rationale for child support. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/754 "2011-01-17T06:13:57Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The child is basically a Macguffin in this situation, a tool being used by the mother (or in extremely rare cases a custodial father). It’s “innocence” (and I abhore that word in regard to children, we are all born sociopaths and become human as we learn about ethics) is irrelevant. It isn’t entitled to anything from its biological parent unless that parent consented to it being born. Furthermore, beyond food, shelter and basic safety, I have always wondered where the idea that children were entitled to anything from their parents came from other than the brats as gods brigade need an exuse for robbing adults to spoil children. Are you extending the rationale of letting men renounce their kids beyond the situation where the bun is still in the oven? I think its perverse to let women force men to support kids they say they don’t want before they are born but once they are born, they have an obligation to support them to the level to which they have become accustomed. You can’t beggar your wife or your children by divorcing them. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/755 "2011-01-17T06:22:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How is it sociopathic to say that a man who doesn’t want to have children shouldn’t be forced to have them. Would it help if we made men pay for the abortion? Because a man who doesn’t want to have children is not now, and has never been (short of rape, which I have said multiple times is a different situation), forced to have children. So, YET AGAIN, you are inventing a situation to argue against. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/756 "2011-01-17T13:56:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How so? If abortion illegal somewhere in the United States? Religious, and personal morality reasons I reckon, and possibly medical reasons. The abortion is murder crowd can get preggers too, and regaurdles of how and why the child came into being, the child is always the innocent party. Although honestly I have trouble imagining how a full pregnancy couldn’t be more medically stressful than an abortion. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/757 "2011-01-17T16:01:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There are a lot of ways for lawyers to make their car payments. This is more than that, this is punishing men for having sex, something that would be unthinkable to do to women. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How is it sociopathic to say that a man who doesn’t want to have children shouldn’t be forced to have them. Would it help if we made men pay for the abortion? I’m 26 weeks pregnant as of this morning. You want “punishment” for sex? Try weight gain, exhaustion, throbbing breasts and constant backache. Half the time I literally feel as if I cannot catch my breath because I am so breathless right now. I slept ten hours last night and I am still tired this morning. Pregnancy is a huge burden on a woman. You don’t want to be responsible for supporting a baby? Don’t have sex with a woman you can’t trust. Women get veto power because men don’t get pregnant. The rest of us should not have pay the tab in child support for men who want to fuck around irresponsibly. What’s sociopathic is to notion that women should bear all the responsibility of child rearing and men none of it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/758 "2011-01-17T18:08:18Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Because a man who doesn’t want to have children is not now, and has never been (short of rape, which I have said multiple times is a different situation), forced to have children. So, YET AGAIN, you are inventing a situation to argue against. I think that your perspective comes from the fact that abortion doesn’t matter in the calculus. A woman who gets pregnant cannot be forced to have children. A man that gets a woman pregnant can be forced to have children. You seem to focus on the act of sex as the man deciding to have children. Why can’t we apply that same standard to women? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/759 "2011-01-17T18:17:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Thanks for the junior modding but I don’t think its off topic when people keep bringing up the “burden to the state” as a rationale for child support. I’m not trying to junior mod, I’m trying to politely point out that you’re committing a [logical fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi) by changing the subject from the matter being debated. I can try to change the subject from child support to child custody in an effort to show how the legal system is unfair to men as a whole, but even if I prove every point I’m trying to make about child custody I still haven’t proved anything about child support - on the contrary, I’ve diverted the conversation away from it. You could make an argument that requiring a flat child custody rate rather than an income based rate for noncustodial parents (which would include men and women alike) would be more equitable for all involved, but even if you conclusively prove that beyond any reasonable argument you haven’t proved anything about why men should be allowed to opt out. You’ve abandoned the original debate. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/760 "2011-01-17T20:19:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > to have children. Why can’t we apply that same standard to women? This needs to be shouted from the roof tops. We do apply the same standard to women. If a woman tries to give up custody it defaults to the other parent. Meaning the father will now have custody, and the mother will have to pay support. A child can only be put up for adoption if both parents relinquish custody. Further if the father can provide a better environment for the child he can sue for custody, if he wins then the mother now pays support. At least that’s how it is in the places I’ve been. It’s the noncustodial parent that pays support. So tl;dr females are just as reasonable for their kids as the male. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=39)