# Abortion and child support **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985 "2010-12-13T15:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/121 "2010-12-14T22:37:44Z")
It’s her body, so she has more time to make her choice. That’s not unfair. That’s biology. You have every opportunity to make your own choice. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/122 "2010-12-14T22:38:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s her body, so she has more time to make her choice. That’s not unfair. That’s biology. You have every opportunity to make your own choice. I take this to mean we are done debating. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/123 "2010-12-14T22:40:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Happy to. You are responsible for the disposition of your own sperm. When you choose to put it in a vagina, you choosing to assume responsibility for any child that results from it. Why you would think that your children are anyone else’s responsibility but your own is beyond me, but the choice to be a father is made at the moment of ejaculation. So you mean that sex is only for procreation? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/124 "2010-12-14T22:45:29Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > If you would just admit that the choices aren’t equal, we can stop quibbling over whether or not it’s fair. > Just admit that it isn’t fair and move on. I’ll admit it: it’s not fair that the mother has more of a choice over whether a child is born than the father does. That’s more an issue of biology than anything else, but I’ll grant that the situation is not entirely equal (although I support the right to an abortion of any man who finds himself pregnant). However, there’s a greater societal interest at stake than maximizing fairness and equality to all parties. To quote…well, me, when this came up in the last thread: > [@](#): > > I’ll give it a shot. Your original question was: “I am having a hard time reconciling how is it that a woman can at the same time decide whether or not a baby she is carrying lives, and also exact child support from a man who cannot make that decision.” The gist of the question, if I get you right, is that such an arrangement violates traditional notions of what’s fair and what’s unfair. The long and short of it is that once the baby is born, fairness to either one of the parents is only of secondary concern, if even that. One may think that the law should be crafted to be maximally fair to all parties at all times, but that’s not always possible, or even desirable. It’s not fair that a child has to grow up without the emotional or financial support of a father because he’s committed a crime and been sentenced to prison, but the law can’t always be fair to all concerned. > > The law frequently has to deal with important interests that are in direct competition with one another. Protection of the public from crime is in direct competition with the civil rights guarantees of the Fourth and Fifth Amendments. Prosecution of crime is in competition with the rights of the accused guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment. Legislatures and courts have to make some very fine distinctions about which of these interests they’re going to protect, and at what cost to other interests. In the issue of child support, fairness to a parent who doesn’t want to assume the responsibilities of parenthood is in competition with the state’s interest in maintaining the welfare of children, and to the degree the two are in competition the law is crafted to favor the latter. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10808344&postcount=112](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10808344&postcount=112) ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/125 "2010-12-14T22:56:49Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > I’ll admit it: it’s not fair that the mother has more of a choice over whether a child is born than the father does. That’s more an issue of biology than anything else, but I’ll grant that the situation is not entirely equal (although I support the right to an abortion of any man who finds himself pregnant). However, there’s a greater societal interest at stake than maximizing fairness and equality to all parties. To quote…well, me, when this came up in the last thread: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10808344&postcount=112](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10808344&postcount=112) Thank you pravnik. I don’t agree with the flawed premise that you need to have it be as unfair a choice as it is but I can at least follow the logic and understand why you feel that way. I guess for me, as a father of 3 myself (kids whom I love dearly), losing a custody battle (which is a separate argument) would mean me paying child support. Which I would gladly do, albeit I’d probably handle it or try to handle it a bit differently than the court apportioned one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/126 "2010-12-15T01:03:33Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > So you mean that sex is only for procreation? I mean that vaginal intercourse carries a _risk_ of procreation, and men are assuming that risk with full knowledge and consent before they choose to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/127 "2010-12-15T01:04:54Z")
Custody issues have nothing to do with this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/128 "2010-12-15T01:42:18Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Except - I think that _no child would exist_ in many, many, many cases if the mother knew she couldn’t force the father to pay child support if he elected to give up his parental rights. > > So there’s that. Yes. The present system enables women to place most of the financial burden of supporting children on the man (who, again, may not even be the actual father), allows her to avoid most of the responsibility for her actions while denying him any say in the matter and any contact with his supposed children. It encourages exploitation, as well as hatred between the sexes. It’s both unjust and destructive to society. > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I could live with that. As long as he got a vasectomy at the same time. This would balance out the fact that one man can get quite a few women pregnant in a very short period of time. He gets to opt out of ONE child support obligation, but then he doesn’t get to make any more babies, ever. And no, he’s not allowed to bank his sperm before getting snipped. Ah. And I suppose to even things out women who get abortions should be permanently sterilized? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I mean that vaginal intercourse carries a _risk_ of procreation, and men are assuming that risk with full knowledge and consent before they choose to do it. An attitude that is nothing but the mirror image of the anti-abortionist ranting that the “slut should have kept her legs shut”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/129 "2010-12-15T01:57:55Z")
Hardly. No choice is being taken away from the man, nor any imposition on his body. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/130 "2010-12-15T03:06:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Hardly. No choice is being taken away from the man, nor any imposition on his body. No imposition on his body, true; it’s hardly the same thing to say his choice has no been taken away though. Not every case of pregnancy is as black and white as an irresponsible couple using no protection. There are plenty of examples of pregnancy while on birth control, condom failure, condom sabotage, and flat out lying on the part of the mother regarding birth control on occasion. A man who takes reasonable precaution against pregnancy can hardly be seen as giving his consent to fatherhood. He took action against that very thing. This is an imperfect analogy but perhaps it will illustrate my point. Suppose you take your classic car into a custom shop to be worked on. You tell the guy there that you would like some restoration done on the interior. He asks you how much, and you reply just enough to get it looking acceptable, you understand that there may be some risk of running up the bill, but for him to minimize that risk wherever possible. He says that he agrees with you and will act likewise to keep the investment minimal. When you return in a few weeks to pick up your ride, you see that an extreme overhaul has been done an he hands you a bill for 50K. He tells you, tough shit, you singed off for me to do the work, and I alone had the decision making capability of what was “acceptable”. Now pay up, and until you pay in full I’m keeping the car. Now obviously in the real world there are all sorts of legalities to cover you, and kids aren’t cars. The point though, is that in both cases you accepted a small amount of risk while making efforts to protect yourself from an unwanted and _preventable_ outcome. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/131 "2010-12-15T03:13:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Hardly. No choice is being taken away from the man, nor any imposition on his body. Having to work for 18-years to support a kid he never wanted is an imposition on his body. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/132 "2010-12-15T03:24:54Z")
He made the choice to be a father. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/133 "2010-12-15T04:06:09Z")
We had a guy at work with four kids with two women. Woman A had kid 1, then kid 2 was with woman B two years later. Then a year later he had another kid with woman A. Six months later a kid with woman B. I have a pretty tough time looking at that situation and saying, “That poor guy. He had no idea whatsoever that could happen. Four times. Since 2007. It’s a real mystery.” ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/134 "2010-12-15T04:26:56Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Answer the question for crying out loud! REGARDLESS OF OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE, WHAT DO YOU DO IN CASES WHERE A PARENT WANTS TO STEP OUT ON RESPONSIBILITY TO THEIR KID? DO YOU LET THEM? IMHO, Yeah, as long as adoption exists. Genetic ties either mean something or they don’t and if we’re going to treat blood relationships as meaningless ties severed by law where one type of parents are concerned, that right should be extended to any type of parents who no longer wish to be parents. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/135 "2010-12-15T04:33:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He made the choice to be a father. No, he choose to have sex, just like the women involved. The women then choose not to have abortions when birth control failed. The man had no choice. This isn’t the middle ages. We have the technology to reduce most of the risks associated with sex. People who choose not to use it deserve no more pity or consideration that someone who suffers from any other easily treated medical condition. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/136 "2010-12-15T05:19:46Z")
There are a number of basic premises here that are wrong. This whole argument is being couched in terms of blame and responsibility and fairness, when really those are marginal issues. The deal with child support is “Who pays for this kid? The taxpayers or the parents?” The deal with abortion is “Should women have the right to make medical decisions about their bodies?” These questions are not particularly related, and there is no need to find some sort of “balance” between them. Anyway: Child support is not about punishing men. Abortion is not about providing a “free pass” for women. Now, it may work out that way, but that’s a consequence, not a cause. That’s just how things happen to work. It’s not fair that some cities are sunny and some are rainy. Life is life. Men can receive child support. If the system is so unfair men do not have the ability to gain custody of their child and receive child support, then that is the system that needs to be changed. I’d get behind that 100%. But it’s funny, for every guy complaining he didn’t get a fair shot at custody of his kid, we get 20 guys complaining about having to pay child support. Something tells me even if the custody system was 100% fair, and even if men had 100% of the decision of what to do with a fetus…men would still complain about having to take care of the kids they sired. How many unwanted kids were unwanted from conception, anyway? In my experience the guy _wants_ to have kids and probably sticks around for a couple of years before deciding he has better things to do than raise his family. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/137 "2010-12-15T05:34:51Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > No, he choose to have sex, just like the women involved. He knows that pregnancy may result, and he willingly, knowingly assumed that risk. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/138 "2010-12-15T08:40:44Z")
Some random thoughts: [ol] [li]I can’t fathom not paying child support for my own child. No matter how odious the mother may be, and no matter if I wanted it or not, that kid is part me (in some sense), and I wouldn’t want it to suffer.[/li][li]Having said that, just because I can’t fathom not wanting to pay child support, I can see that some men don’t want to pay for kids they didn’t want. Just as some women would never personally have an abortion, but want women in general to be able to make that choice for themselves. Similarly, even though I would not exercise this right, it would be more fair if men had the option, before the fetus is X weeks old to say “I want out” via a legal document, and if the woman continues and has the baby, she has to support it by herself[/li][li]On the other hand, ‘fairness’ aside, it looks like the current system results in the best overall well-being of society in terms of having kids (especially from lower socioeconomic strata) taken care of.[/li][li]This brings up an interesting question: Should we optimize society for fairness or for the economic well-being of the citizens? If some form of monarchy can be proven to result in a higher standard of living for all citizens than any form of democracy, should we chose that monarchy even if it is not as fair as democracy (since not everyone gets a vote in the monarchy) ?[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/139 "2010-12-15T13:03:10Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > There are a number of basic premises here that are wrong. This whole argument is being couched in terms of blame and responsibility and fairness, when really those are marginal issues. The deal with child support is “Who pays for this kid? The taxpayers or the parents?” The deal with abortion is “Should women have the right to make medical decisions about their bodies?” These questions are not particularly related, and there is no need to find some sort of “balance” between them. Actually the argument for balance does boil down to “fairness” to some degree. I believe that each person should be as free as possible to decide what to do with their own body and life. Since I support a woman’s right to choose, and thus control her own body and destiny, I have to likewise support a man’s right to be in control of his fate as well. Now since biologically speaking the equation is skewed, _true_ balance can never really be achieved, and I grant that. However, Currently the system allows one partner to decide about her body, and the future of both herself AND her partner. I believe that goes too far and encourages, rather than discourages carrying pregnancies to term. There is plenty of data out there that shows women will do this for any number of reasons beyond a well thought out decision to start a family. THAT is the problem. No amount of money will make up for a stable loving family, and we are not in dire need of growing the population at any rate. Simply put, if women knew there was a significant chance that there would be no support from the father, there would be a great deal fewer unwanted pregnancies brought to term. That would be a net benefit for society, and the population in general. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985/140 "2010-12-15T13:27:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He knows that pregnancy may result, and he willingly, knowingly assumed that risk. I’m sympathetic to your overall argument, but I can’t quite help being reminded of an anti-abortionist saying that illegal abortion would _not_ be an imposition; a woman knowingly assumes the risk of pregnancy when having sex. (Ignoring, momentarily, issues of coercion.) In both cases – a woman being forced to carry a baby to term and a man being forced to provide for that child until adulthood – sacrifices have to be made by both parties, and I’m not comfortable saying one is more or less onerous. To say otherwise certainly seems a little … unempathic toward the male. (To be honest … when I was younger and more opinionated, I believed that – because a man essentially provides only genetic material – the child is utterly, entirely the woman’s. To posit that genetic material ties a man to his child is almost like imparting something magical or _spooky_ to it. The woman creates the child from her own flesh; the man should have neither responsibility for providing for the child nor any rights to that child. Now I’m much more open to the practical argument that _somebody_ has to care for the child, but I haven’t entirely shaken that point of view.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-child-support/563985.md?page=8)