Abortion and child support

[robertliguori]

@ZPG_Zealot

Usually because his mother had the common sense to secure the inheritance rights and the right to support for her children before getting pregnant. Which is also exactly why in an ideal world the unwanted offspring of a wealthy father would get nothing except maybe a note that says, “you could have had a better life, but your mother was a stupid idiot who refused to plan for your birth. Blame her for any misfortunes of poverty.”

…wait, what?

[Polerius]

@you_with_the_face

Why are posters acting like we don’t have real world data showing what would happen if men weren’t held accountable for their offspring?

Maybe I’d think differently about the arguments in this thread if someone could name one country that doesn’t enforce child support which isn’t 1) overpopulated, 2) impoverished, and 3) awash in STI’s/HIV. But no one has done that; there’s only la-la-land dreaming going on here.

Correlation doesn’t causation, but it’s gotta take some willful ignorance to think its mere coincidence that the healthiest, most productive nations all expect men to support their kids, wanted or unwanted. No one has provided any evidence that changing this will induce women to do a better job at preventing their pregnancies. It’s like, stop already, please.

Are there any nations which don’t enforce child support and where abortion is legal, easily available, and affordable?

Because, if I’m not mistaken, all those nations you are referring to (overpopulated, impoverished, and awash in STI’s/HIV) do not have abortion that is legal, easily available, and affordable.

If the US were to suddenly enable an “out” for potential fathers, the huge difference is that American women can decide to abort, which is a choice millions of women around the world don’t have. So, we can’t take all those other nations as indications of what would happen here.

[cosmosdan]

@Polerius

If the US were to suddenly enable an “out” for potential fathers, the huge difference is that American women can decide to abort, which is a choice millions of women around the world don’t have. So, we can’t take all those other nations as indications of what would happen here.

You made a valid point but there are indeed many countries that have where women can choose to abort that have similar child support laws requiring support from both parents.

Let me make a good guess that all those nations went from a system that didn’t hold men financially responsible to one that did. Want to guess why? Should we believe they all made a similar mistake and all have a secret desire to punish men?

[Stoid]

@jsgoddess

Since condoms are a form of contraception, it pretty much explodes the idea that men are trying their goshdarned best to prevent pregnancy, it’s just those BITCHES who insist on getting pregnant who are to blame.

Just FTR: if I wanted to get pregnant, a condom would be no barrier at all- just a receptacle for the donation.

[even_sven]

@Stoid

Just FTR: if I wanted to get pregnant, a condom would be no barrier at all- just a receptacle for the donation.

So carry a plastic bag with you and throw it away in a secure location.

Or, you know, don’t screw crazy girls.

Can we throw out some more bizarre, unlikely, far-fetched scenarios to hide the fact that 99.99% of unwanted pregnancies are not caused by malevolent man-hating bitches, but rather careless people.

[Stoid]

@even_sven

So carry a plastic bag with you and throw it away in a secure location.

Or, you know, don’t screw crazy girls.

Can we throw out some more bizarre, unlikely, far-fetched scenarios to hide the fact that 99.99% of unwanted pregnancies are not caused by malevolent man-hating bitches, but rather careless people.

I haven’t noticed anyone besides you equating women who think they can gain a man’s love by having his child as “malevolent man-hating bitches”.

[you_with_the_face]

@Polerius

Because, if I’m not mistaken, all those nations you are referring to (overpopulated, impoverished, and awash in STI’s/HIV) do not have abortion that is legal, easily available, and affordable.

Probably not. That said, my post was more in response to those who opine that if we left men off the hook, then women would be more inclined to prevent unwanted pregnancies from occurring in the first place.

I’m not comfortable with the blase attitude that abortion should be used as contraception to compensate for men’s irresponsibility. Abortion is a invasive medical procedure that carries risks of complications and other issues, including future infertility. This includes even non-surgical abortion. So even if American women started aborting their unwanted pregnancies to offset men’s lack of accountabilty, this wouldn’t be a cause for celebration. Abortion isn’t free; it stretches public and private resources. Why would we want to become a society that looks like this?

This doesn’t address the more alarming fear I have about STIs and HIV. In a previous thread on this subject, I cited evidence that fear of unwanted child support was the main motivator for condom use in young men. Take that fear away and I fucking guarrantee that incidence of STIs/HIV will skyrocket. Free abortion clinics on every corner will not change that.

If the US were to suddenly enable an “out” for potential fathers, the huge difference is that American women can decide to abort, which is a choice millions of women around the world don’t have. So, we can’t take all those other nations as indications of what would happen here.

Those countries are indications of what we don’t want to become, though. Their existence should at least make people question the wisdom of saying, sans evidence, that letting men off the hook leads to better social outcomes. There is no data that supports this.

[cosmosdan]

@Stoid

Just FTR: if I wanted to get pregnant, a condom would be no barrier at all- just a receptacle for the donation.

Good Lord, stop the ridiculous reaching and just admit your theory doesn’t match reality. The numbers show you are incorrect. There certainly are women who might seek to get pregnant to trap their man but it seems foolish to entertain the thought that most would , especially after the stats clearly say otherwise.

[villa]

@even_sven

Or, you know, don’t screw crazy girls.

But they are AWESOME in the sack!

[Freudian_Slit]

@Stoid

I haven’t noticed anyone besides you equating women who think they can gain a man’s love by having his child as “malevolent man-hating bitches”.

I don’t think you’ve been paying attention…

[cosmosdan]

@you_with_the_face

Probably not. That said, my post was more in response to those who opine that if we left men off the hook, then women would be more inclined to prevent unwanted pregnancies from occurring in the first place.

I’m not comfortable with the blase attitude that abortion should be used as contraception to compensate for men’s irresponsibility. Abortion is a invasive medical procedure that carries risks of complications and other issues, including future infertility. This includes even non-surgical abortion. So even if American women started aborting their unwanted pregnancies to offset men’s lack of accountabilty, this wouldn’t be a cause for celebration. Abortion isn’t free; it stretches public and private resources. Why would we want to become a society that looks like this?

This doesn’t address the more alarming fear I have about STIs and HIV. In a previous thread on this subject, I cited evidence that fear of unwanted child support was the main motivator for condom use in young men. Take that fear away and I fucking guarrantee that incidence of STIs/HIV will skyrocket. Free abortion clinics on every corner will not change that.

Those countries are indications of what we don’t want to become, though. Their existence should at least make people question the wisdom of saying, sans evidence, that letting men off the hook leads to better social outcomes. There is no data that supports this.

All of this. Those who entertain the idea that they have a better idea than the ones established from decades of experience tend to ignore or minimize the negative ramifications of their suggestions which far offset any imagined benefit.

[Nars_Glinley]

@villa

But they are AWESOME in the sack!

But it is NEVER worth it.

I’ve seen that on a demotivational poster somewhere but can’t find a link to it.

[villa]

@Nars_Glinley

But it is NEVER worth it.

I’ve seen that on a demotivational poster somewhere but can’t find a link to it.

My first talk with my son about sex will include the time honored phrase (from Leviticus, I believe) “you don’t stick your dick in the crazy.”

[cosmosdan]

@villa

“you don’t stick your dick in the crazy.”

and so begins my tragic story…

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@cosmosdan

It isn’t perfect, but hopefully the possibility of being responsible for a child crosses a man’s mind and prompts him to take steps to prevent that from happening…

Then

It’s just goofy. Isn’t it reasonable to expect responsibility from human beings regardless of gender?

And THATS why we have abortion.

So under your plan, women have essentially all the responsibility for contraception and child rearing and at at the mercy of the whim of the man who willingly participated in creating the child.

She also has the choice for abortion, lets not forget THAT. Lets not forget that the man is at the mercy of the woman’s choice (her whim if you will) the same as the woman is at the emrcy of the man’s choice to support the child he may or may not want.

So current plan, women and men are more or less equally responsible for efforts of contraception and know they are both held responsible for the risk of pregnancy they are taking. Both are held financially responsible for the child of an unplanned pregnancy.

And the woman can get an abortion.

Under your plan, women have all the compelling responsibility for contraception and all the financial responsibility for any unplanned child.

Or she can get an abortion.

For some reason you think compelling women to take responsibility is sure to work, but compelling men to doesn’t even make sense to you.
How is that anything but completely and obviously unfair and a product of basic logic?

Because teh woman can get an abortion.

As far as evidence. We’ve already had a society where men were not legally compelled to support the children they sired and decided it wasn’t a good idea for women children or society as whole. How about the fact that most developed nations and societies have similar expectations from parents and even have agreements to enforce child support internationally. These laws didn’t come from throwing darts at a dart board.

I wonder how many of those rules were created before abortions were legal and widely available.

This is utter bullshit. They both assume the risk when they agree to have sex.

Not in a world where abortions are legal.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@you_with_the_face

Maybe I’d think differently about the arguments in this thread if someone could name one country that doesn’t enforce child support which isn’t 1) overpopulated, 2) impoverished, and 3) awash in STI’s/HIV. But no one has done that; there’s only la-la-land dreaming going on here.

And how legal and available is abortion in those countries?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@you_with_the_face

I don’t understand your hang up with fairness.

Is it fair that women have to endure the pain and nuisance of 30+ years of menstrual periods while men do not?

Is it fair that women have to risk their lives, sacrifice comfort, and deal with sometimes burdensome, permanent physical changes in the reproductive process (ie urinary incontinence, uterine prolapse, etc), while men do not?

Is it fair that women have to endure the pain and cost of having an abortion, while men do not?

These things are “unfair” in the same way it’s “unfair” that a pregnant woman has choices that a man does not. The former more than cancels the latter out. Men have nothing to complain about.

The unfairness of having periods and enduring childbirth are not legally imposed.

I would be totally on board with making the man pay for the abortion.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@cosmosdan

and so another thread on this subject comes to a close with the very same result as the others. Those who thought they might have some new wrinkle to ad and somehow make things more equitable for poor beleaguered men have been demonstrated to have nothing to support their contentions and it turns out the way laws have developed in modern societies was based on reality rather than some fiendish plot to punish men.

Who’d a thunk it.

I see it differently, but its nice to get your take on things.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@pravnik

Why does the rich man get to drive a nicer car and live in a bigger house than the day laborer? Why does more of his money get taken away in taxes?

That is inconsistent with your argument for why we need to impose child support on the biological father. The most your arguments support is some fixed amount of child support that would relieve the state from having to support the child (and its mother while she cares for the child), it doesn’t support the percentage of income approach.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@cosmosdan

You made a valid point but there are indeed many countries that have where women can choose to abort that have similar child support laws requiring support from both parents.

Let me make a good guess that all those nations went from a system that didn’t hold men financially responsible to one that did. Want to guess why? Should we believe they all made a similar mistake and all have a secret desire to punish men?

Did they adopt those laws before or after abortions became legal available and affordable?