# Abortion and gun control arguments, a symmetry? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435 "2013-01-26T14:33:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/1 "2013-01-26T14:33:28Z")
Steven Den Beste thinks there’s an odd symmetry between the arguments in America about abortion and those about gun control. I’ve spoilered the link because the site isn’t really SFW [chizumatic.mee.nu](http://chizumatic.mee.nu/an_interesting_symmetry) _Prima facie_ he seems to be onto something but not being American, my exposure is rather limited - primarily the SDMB, in fact. I’d rather the thread didn’t go into arguments about gun control or abortion themselves, but stick to the similarities & differences between the arguments. IOW let’s keep it meta. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/2 "2013-01-26T15:18:26Z")
I think it captures the way both sides are “dug in”, with little hope of a middle ground. I’m not sure it’s a good representation due to differences in the actual subject matter. Neither side in the gun control debates is defending a real religion, just deeply held differences on rights and violence causes. I don’t know if this analogy is more symmetrical, but I find it easier to understand the whole debate if I recast it as a dog breed argument. I try to re-read the arguments and replace “guns” (or assault weapons) with “Pit Bulls”. I realize there are huge differences but it allows me to at least see the other side’s point of view. FWIW: I’m a very strong 2nd amendment supporter. I find myself occasionally (erroneously) equating Pit Bull owners with wannabee tough-guys who own them just for the swagger factor. I know this isn’t true, but it’s probably how the gun-control advocates view me. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/3 "2013-01-26T15:35:00Z")
I don’t see any sort of analogy. I see a description of the US political process. ---
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/4 "2013-01-26T18:33:21Z")
I don’t see much in common between them at all. I view abortion as intrinsically evil; it should always be illegal. But guns… guns are a totally different story. They are neither intrinsically evil nor intrinsically necessary. I can see a wide range of acceptable points at which to draw the line concerning what weapons should be permitted for private citizens. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/5 "2013-01-26T18:41:49Z")
Your link doesn’t work for me. It goes to that site, but it’s about Japanese Military Ranks. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/6 "2013-01-26T19:01:43Z")
Link didn’t work. But I find it interesting that there is a group of people who argue that abortions shouldn’t be illegal because women would still get obtain them illegally at more or less the same rate who also simultaneously argue that there should be ban on (certain types off) guns, because limiting gun ownership will reduce the total number of gun crimes. Never really understood that line if reasoning. Either banning something reduces its incidence or it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/7 "2013-01-26T19:04:10Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Link didn’t work. But I find it interesting that there is a group of people who argue that abortions shouldn’t be illegal because women would still get obtain them illegally at more or less the same rate who also simultaneously argue that there should be ban on (certain types off) guns, because limiting gun ownership will reduce the total number of gun crimes. Never really understood that line if reasoning. Either banning something reduces its incidence or it doesn’t. Who says women would get abortions at the same rate if abortion was illegal? People argue that many women will still get abortions, and they won’t be as safe, but I’ve never heard that we’d have the same number of abortions regardless of the legality. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/8 "2013-01-26T19:05:09Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Link didn’t work. But I find it interesting that there is a group of people who argue that abortions shouldn’t be illegal because women would still get obtain them illegally at more or less the same rate who also simultaneously argue that there should be ban on (certain types off) guns, because limiting gun ownership will reduce the total number of gun crimes. Never really understood that line if reasoning. Either banning something reduces its incidence or it doesn’t. I think the pro-choice argument says that if it’s outlawed, more women will die from back-alley abortions, not that there will be the same number. ---
**Author:** ![emoticorpse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/22d042/32.png) [@emoticorpse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emoticorpse)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/9 "2013-01-26T19:06:16Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > I don’t see much in common between them at all. > > I view abortion as intrinsically evil; it should always be illegal. > > But guns… guns are a totally different story. They are neither intrinsically evil nor intrinsically necessary. I can see a wide range of acceptable points at which to draw the line concerning what weapons should be permitted for private citizens. I think you oversimplified the abortion in comparison to the gun argument. I would think the view you have on “abortion” the act that’s being done could easily be applied to “guns” the weapon whose sole purpose is to kill/wound something. I agree when you say abortion is intrinsically evil, but if you were to state that “gun” wasn’t intrinsically evil, I would think your thinking is skewed. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/10 "2013-01-26T19:22:20Z")
[There you go.](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/09/1/gpr090102.html) The central premise? Making abortions illegal have little affect on the abortion rate. You just make them dangerous if you do so (this board is rife with such examples of purple stating as much that I’m far too lazy to hunt down right now). But that’s off topic. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/11 "2013-01-26T19:24:59Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > [There you go.](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/09/1/gpr090102.html) > > The central premise? Making abortions illegal have little affect on the abortion rate. You just make them dangerous if you do so (this board is rife with such examples of purple stating as much that I’m far too lazy to hunt down right now). But that’s off topic. From your link: > [@](#): > > Criminalization would reduce, but by no means eliminate, abortion’s incidence, and that might come at a price too high for most Americans to bear. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/12 "2013-01-26T19:28:58Z")
Someone doesn’t know what “more or less” means. Did you even try to read the whole thing? Rhetorical question, of course. Edit: You didn’t even read my quote, which you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/13 "2013-01-26T19:30:12Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Someone doesn’t know what “more or less” means. Did you even try to read the whole thing? Rhetorical question, of course. I thought “more or less” meant “about the same”. And of course I didn’t read the whole thing! I only had two minutes! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/14 "2013-01-26T19:31:13Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/15 "2013-01-26T19:35:34Z")
I took the central premise of your link to be “banning abortion will reduce the abortion rate, but not eliminate it, and will result in much greater risk to women”, not “banning abortion will have little effect on the abortion rate”. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/16 "2013-01-26T19:37:56Z")
Since you want to cherry pick quotes, allow me to assist you (these are all direct quotes): > [@](#): > > The evidence is strong that abortion’s legal status, however closely related to the conditions under which it is performed, is not the central determinant of its prevalence (related articles, March 2003, page 8, and May 2003, page 3). > [@](#): > > Just as laws banning abortion do not stop women from having them, it is equally true that permissive laws do not cause them to do so. > [@](#): > > Undoubtedly, the array of restrictions on abortion that has been enacted since that time can and does amount to an absolute barrier for some women who may be young or have meager resources and who cannot easily travelto anotherstate tofindan abortion provider or to avoid a home-state’s burdensome requirements.Overall, though, with the exception of the cutoff of Medicaid funds for abortions for poor women,there is little evidence that “mitigating” Roe’s effects has had a significant impact on the incidence of abortion. Try to pay “Gotcha!” elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/17 "2013-01-26T19:40:05Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > I don’t see much in common between them at all. > > I view abortion as intrinsically evil; it should always be illegal. > > But guns… guns are a totally different story. They are neither intrinsically evil nor intrinsically necessary. I can see a wide range of acceptable points at which to draw the line concerning what weapons should be permitted for private citizens. Well, that settles it! Who knew that all this time the body politic was just waiting for conclusory statements about how **Weeping Wyvern** views various policy debates. Why do people argue this way? Do you suppose that anybody is going to be persuaded the least bit by this kind of argumentation? What if I retort, “Well, I don’t see abortion as ‘intrinsically evil.’” Guess we’re at a POV impasse, huh? Articulating a perspective is the very first step in making a policy argument. And it is quite a useless step if the case begins and ends there. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/18 "2013-01-26T19:40:42Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Since you want to cherry pick quotes, allow me to assist you (these are all direct quotes): All of those support my point! Edit- ok, only the third one does. > [@](#): > > Try to pay “Gotcha!” elsewhere. But it’s so much fun. ---
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/19 "2013-01-26T20:00:45Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Well, that settles it! Who knew that all this time the body politic was just waiting for conclusory statements about how **Weeping Wyvern** views various policy debates. > > Why do people argue this way? Do you suppose that anybody is going to be persuaded the least bit by this kind of argumentation? What if I retort, “Well, I don’t see abortion as ‘intrinsically evil.’” Guess we’re at a POV impasse, huh? > > Articulating a perspective is the very first step in making a policy argument. And it is quite a useless step if the case begins and ends there. But I’m not “making a policy argument”. > [@Quartz](#): > > I’d rather the thread didn’t go into arguments about gun control or abortion themselves, but stick to the similarities & differences between the arguments. IOW let’s keep it meta. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435/20 "2013-01-26T20:20:42Z")
The only symmetry I see is that on each issue, one side assumes that the Constitution doesn’t say anything in particular. People want to ban guns even though the Second Amendment says you can’t do that, and also argue in favor of Roe v. Wade, even though the Constitution does not assign the power to regulate abortion to the federal government. The groups are not always the same people, although there is a lot of overlap. Regards, Shodan [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-gun-control-arguments-a-symmetry/648435.md?page=2)