# Abortion and prayer for the unborn's well being **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 7, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520 "2015-07-07T22:24:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/81 "2015-07-10T01:12:53Z")
Nearly 1500 views and 23 poll votes. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/82 "2015-07-10T01:22:06Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Even if that’s true, the child is now dead. Why the need for prayer? Sucks to be the dead baby, but God will be kind, no? Karma, and why not. What difference does it mean to a supposedly timeless god. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/83 "2015-07-10T01:23:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Forget it Jake, it’s **Kanicbird** town. Same could be said of you **Guinastasia**. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/84 "2015-07-10T01:28:00Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > So, faced with the evidence in this thread that many people do not feel a need for prayer for the unborn’s well being, and remembering that women are people, would you consider it acting with loving compassion to provide that prayer against the will of the mother? Who said the mother explicitly expressed such wishes as not to pray for the unborn child, and is not that right the child’s thus bypassing the request. Would you deny the free will of others to act out of their heart. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/85 "2015-07-10T01:39:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Who said the mother explicitly expressed such wishes as not to pray for the unborn child, Perhaps I should have made the logic more clear. People in this thread (including mothers) have expressed the opinion that prayer for the unborn is unnecessary or even irritating. Therefore, not all mothers want prayer for their unborn. Mothers in this thread have explicitly expressed such wishes. > [@](#): > > and is not that right the child’s thus bypassing the request. I don’t know, is it? Earlier you were worried about the mother’s karma, not the unborn’s. That indicated to me that you thought the right and responsibility lay with the mother. > [@](#): > > Would you deny the free will of others to act out of their heart. Towards someone who expressed a desire that they not do that? Absolutely. Your free will stops where my free will begins. If I am incurring karma for not allowing you to pray for my unborn, then that’s my free will in question. We don’t incur karma for things that are out of our control, outside our free will. Praying for a person who doesn’t want prayer is violence, not love. If the mother is the God of her unborn, then she gets to decline prayer for it. To pray anyway is to thwart God’s Will. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/86 "2015-07-10T07:47:04Z")
I repent my participation in this thread. Can I get my posts aborted? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/87 "2015-07-10T10:39:40Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > I repent my participation in this thread. Can I get my posts aborted? _genuflects and blesses quoted post_ ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/88 "2015-07-10T10:40:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Quite frankly this post has been amazing and way beyond the pole. Said Mario Andretti. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/89 "2015-07-10T11:22:50Z")
Since when are devout Christians worried about ‘Karma’ of any stripe, much less someone else’s? Co opting concepts from the Hindus are we now? No worries, I hear that Christian God is nothing but inclusive and tolerant. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/90 "2015-07-10T12:03:48Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Fair enough. > Original: > Let me re-write it" > > This leads me to the conclusion that the pro choice movement has influenced many women (and men) to incur a karmic penalty by causing them to deny reality and their very beings to the point that they can not even consider another point of view, they are not incapable of it and state that it is not understandable (needed to protect themselves). What movement influenced your break with reality? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/91 "2015-07-10T13:28:29Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Silly Knickerbocker. Catholics ARE Christians > > To punish you for spreading the slander that they are not, I have directed an Anne Hathaway model slapbot to track down and thrash Christian Bale. :eek: Catholics aren’t Christians! Catholics aren’t Christians! Catholics aren’t Christians! * * * Kanicbird, I will not continue to engage with you after this post. Yes, your definition of god and mine differ vastly. My definition of god is “a made up fairy tale to comfort us in the dark days when we looked to the sky and didn’t understand anything, and hopefully something we will leave behind in the future, or at least won’t affect public policy in any way”. So as you can see, we are not even close. I don’t believe in the sanctity of human life, nor in souls. I do believe that we are on this Earth to wonder, and to discover, and to find out things. We are your God: we are the paradox that hasn’t been able to solve itself. We are the Universe manifest; trying to figure ourselves out. Which means I cannot at all stomach any faith or abide any belief without knowing in my world. We must turn over every rock, look behind every curtain, and discover all that this vast world has to offer us. And in the end, we may not recognize ourselves anymore, just as primitive man might not recognize what we are now. Now, I do believe in a sort of karma. You say that me aborting a child and not praying for it means I have gotten some sort of karmic loss. I say frankly, that’s ridiculous. Me not having a child means I have had that much more money, wealth, love, and kindness, to distribute to other children. Me not having a child means I can be a great auntie. That I can give gifts to the children of my friends and bestow on them extra love. That is how I redress my “karmic balance”. - Anaamika, atheist Hindu ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/92 "2015-07-10T15:08:50Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m curious why you are trying hard to be an atheist. Seems like if you have to try, you’re not an atheist. My brain does a lot of stupid things. It thinks that[lines are longer or shorter than they are](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCller-Lyer_illusion), [it has massive troubles with sorting out reality in so many ways that it’s actually frightening](https://blog.bufferapp.com/thinking-mistakes-8-common-mistakes-in-how-we-think-and-how-to-avoid-them), it tells me that the world is dark and I am better off dead (depression is fun!), it occasionally decides for no good reason that I am dying of a heart attack (yay panic disorder!), and it also was influenced deeply by an entire childhood spent in a fundamentalist cult. So yes, I have to work at being logical and rational. I think a lot of people probably do, they just might not want to admit it, because being logical and rational is the “good” thing to be, and admitting that one’s brain is broken is hard to do - I still won’t admit it in meat-space, because I would face social sanctions. Apologies for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/93 "2015-07-10T15:34:58Z")
There was a FB post that went by on my wall - had a picture of a ‘baby born with 3 heads’ (lloks like the skull was malformed, pretty badly for sure) - aksing for ‘prayers’ to help the baby. I almost replied - “so all the prayers for a healthy pregnancy and birth were ignored, and you expect God to listen now?” instead, I just unfriended the idiot. Prayer - literally the least you can do to help someone. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/94 "2015-07-10T16:20:27Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My initial assumption was that the child was considered a person with a soul, my realization is that not only is that not the norm, it is actually incomprehensible to some. […] I’ll flat out say that the whole “with a soul” thing is, while not _in_comprehensible, is only understandable as made-up malarkey used to subjugate and terrorize people. It is despicable nonsense. > [@Senegoid](#): > > But how do you baptize a zygote? > [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > Use a syringe? Great! Now we’re gonna have autistic zygotes. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/95 "2015-07-10T16:33:43Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > :rolleyes: Oh good Christ…this is the smartest place on the web? > > He is asking what prayers, if any, were offered if you had an abortion. What the fuck does “no prayer exists” mean, then? That would appear to indicate that the question is asking whether there is some type of traditonal prayer for the aborted. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/96 "2015-07-10T19:43:44Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > I repent my participation in this thread. Can I get my posts aborted? > [@kayaker](#): > > _genuflects and blesses quoted post_ Best part of the whole thread. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/97 "2015-07-10T19:52:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What the fuck does “no prayer exists” mean, then? That would appear to indicate that the question is asking whether there is some type of traditonal prayer for the aborted. Kinda wondering about “hard core prayer,” too. As long as you’re already kneeling, I guess? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/98 "2015-07-10T21:34:18Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Since when are devout Christians worried about ‘Karma’ of any stripe, much less someone else’s? > > Co opting concepts from the Hindus are we now? > > No worries, I hear that Christian God is nothing but inclusive and tolerant. [QUOTE=Galatians 6:7] Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. [/QUOTE] Basically Karma defined for Christians And why would you consider me a christian, atheists has a stronger belief in the christian god then I do. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/99 "2015-07-10T21:37:00Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > But how do you baptize a zygote? Who mentioned baptism - most likely a atheist who follows a christian god, which I do not. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520/100 "2015-07-10T21:55:46Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Perhaps I should have made the logic more clear. > > People in this thread (including mothers) have expressed the opinion that prayer for the unborn is unnecessary or even irritating. Therefore, not all mothers want prayer for their unborn. Mothers in this thread have explicitly expressed such wishes. Lets simplify this. A person has the right to request no prayers (for themselves) but does not have the right to demand that. A person has a obligation to honor such a request or override it according to their faith and their relationship with God. So no one has the right or ability to deny other people’s prayers nor should they. > [@](#): > > I don’t know, is it? Earlier you were worried about the mother’s karma, not the unborn’s. That indicated to me that you thought the right and responsibility lay with the mother.Towards someone who expressed a desire that they not do that? The mother is given great authority over the unborn, that of life or death. The karmic effect is how can she expect peace with her decision when she denies personhood to the one who the life she is ending. I’m not saying she does not need compassion and understanding, I’m saying that karmically she can not get this if she denies it to her child. > [@](#): > > Praying for a person who doesn’t want prayer is violence, not love. If the mother is the God of her unborn, then she gets to decline prayer for it. To pray anyway is to thwart God’s Will. God still is sovereign. God can deny a abortion, and I have heard that has happened (failed abortion, child born). While that woman is god over that child, God is still God over them as it should be. Though I do agree with you that spiritual powers can be violence. This goes to intent. Was it for the well being of the child or other reason. Was it the request of the unborn child’s cry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-and-prayer-for-the-unborns-well-being/724520.md?page=6)