# Abortion + Capital Punishment = confused poll **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 30, 2001, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070 "2001-11-30T03:32:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/1 "2001-11-30T03:32:58Z")
O.K. I hope the title didn’t scare too many Dopers away with a yawn of “been there, done that, not getting involved again…” I realised the other day while reading an abortion thread [sub]which I always try and restrain myself from posting to, as common sense and tolerance always seem to fly out the window with this topic, even amongst us tolerant Dopers 😉 [/sub] that while I agree with abortion, I strongly disagree with capital punnishment. This doesn’t strike me as very logical, and I would be interested in knowing what others who have these opposing views think. If you’re the opposite, i.e. agree with capital punishment but disagree with abortion, I want to hear from you too. If you agree with both, or disagree with both, there are plenty of other threads out there for you to argue on. I’m just after those that have opposing views, and how they reconcile them. Me first 🙂 Abortion : agree Capital punishment : disagree How do I reconcile this : not sure yet… FTR, I’ve heard the argument that people don’t want to risk killing an innocent person, and it doesn’t touch me. Even if you could somehow guarantee all people executed would be guilty, I would still strongly disagree with capital punishment. And I believe that at the moment of conception, you have created human life, so yes, by agreeing to abortion, I guess I am agreeing to kill a human being. Let the interesting replies roll… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/2 "2001-11-30T03:41:59Z")
while I don’t personally agree with abortion, I don’t have the right the right to tell any person what to do with their body. As for the death penalty. Murder by another name is still murder. If anyone can provide a cite demonstrating the efficacy of the death penalty perhaps I will change my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Hemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Hemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hemlock)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/3 "2001-11-30T03:49:14Z")
Yes - The law can’t stop women from having abortions if they want, so it’s best to leave it to their individual conscience. However, the law can stop the state from executing people. No great contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/4 "2001-11-30T04:47:47Z")
Ok, I’ll bite. **Abortion** Against. It’s the taking of a _human_ life. No one disputes that. What some want to negotiate away is the latest nonsense called _personhood_. I see, it only becomes a _person_ when it’s convenient, is that it? Nice logic. Why aren’t we erring on the cautious side, like say, many people argue with respect to the… **Death Penalty** For. Those sentenced to death are responsible for their actions and have been judged in a court of law to be guilty and deserving of the ultimate punishment. Our system is loaded with checks and balances to protect the rights of the accused. Yes, sometimes it fails. We are a nation of laws subject to human reasoning, and mistakes will happen. If we incapacitate our justice system due to the human lack of perfection, let’s hear the argument for abortion, one more time with feeling. Summed up: it’s okay to abort an unborn fetus because? It’s also _not_ okay to put to death those few depraved individuals amongst us who’ve shown complete and utter disregard for our laws and the value of human life, and typically have taken more than one life on the way to the death penalty? And this makes sense to people? We only kill our young, not predatory murderers. I get it. Not. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/5 "2001-11-30T05:09:34Z")
Thanks, **NaSultainne** that’s what I’m after… peoples honest opinions. Now come on, I can’t be the only person out there who can’t stand capital punishment, but would undergo an abortion. [sub]We _all_ know that no matter how freaky we think we are, there will always be at least two other Dopers who do the same thing, killing our claim to uniqueness ! And one of \*them \* will always do it worse ! [/sub]😉 **Hemlock,** correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t your argument based on the practical side of things, not the feeling side of things ? You say the law can’t stop abortions, but what do you think about them ? I’m assuming you are against capital punishment… ---
**Author:** ![Hemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Hemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hemlock)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/6 "2001-11-30T05:46:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Goo \* > \*\*Hemlock, correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t your argument based on the practical side of things, not the feeling side of things ? You say the law can’t stop abortions, but what do you think about them ? I’m assuming you are against capital punishment… \*\* Correct - I was thinking in terms of the practicalities. The practicality is that many 1000s of women who could never bring themselves to “commit murder/take a life” will have an abortion, regardless of what the law says. Clearly, they don’t feel abortion = murder, and I’m happy to let them make that decision. Being a guy, I have no idea how I would feel. If capital punishment deterred crime or benefited the community by reducing prison system costs, I would support it - IF they got the right guy. But these don’t seem to be the case, and we all know they sometimes don’t get the right guy - so yes I’m anti. ---
**Author:** ![They\_Call\_Me\_Sneeze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@They\_Call\_Me\_Sneeze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/They_Call_Me_Sneeze)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/7 "2001-11-30T06:24:19Z")
Hi Goo! I feel exactly the same as you do: I believe that it is my (or anyone elses right) to have an abortion, but I also think that no one has the right to kill anyone else. Hence, pro-choice, against capital punishment. The difference is, a fetus is not a human being. It’s a clump of rapidly dividing cells. If the person whose body is host to those cells doesnt want a baby, than the fetus is basically the same thing as a tumor. Just because two haploid cells join together and start dividing doesnt make it something special. With the death penalty, however, you are dealing with a fully formed human being. If murder is murder in a dark alley with a .38, it’s murder in a sterile chamber with a syringe of sodium pentabarbituate, or whatever it is they use. Just because a certain person is judged to have committed a heinous crime doesnt make it ok to kill them. So that is basically how I reconcile it. A fetus is not a human being, whereas a criminal (no matter how heinous the crime) is. Well, off to bed. love sneeze ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Tof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tof)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/8 "2001-11-30T06:25:21Z")
First of all this is not Screeme, this is his girlfriend (soon to be SoccerDuck) Abortion:Against-for starters, how can anyone say they are for abortion because a woman has a right to decide what she wants to do to her body? Yes, the child is growing INSIDE her however it is NOT her. The child is a SEPERATE life. NO person, I don’t care who you are, has the right to decide who lives and who dies, you were either dumb enough or unfortunate enough to become pregnant and getting rid of the “inconvenience” is the easy way out. Secondly, the child becomes a “child” the second it is conceived. It is growing and developing every day, everything the mother does affects the child. The only difference between an abortion and a murder is usually the murder victim doesn’t suspect their own mother to turn on them. Capital Punishment:Against-I beleive people can change, and I also beleive that people can get “better” over time. Inmates may never leave the confines of their prison but I beleive that them having to live their lifes with the choices they have made is much harder than taking the easy way out(capital punishment). Many inmates deserve a second chance and they should get those chances IN prison, where they can come to terms with their actions and better themselves through strict guidlines and a lot of time to think. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/9 "2001-11-30T06:35:52Z")
**Screeme** or soon to be **SoccerDuck** 1. Hi, welcome to the boards. 2. I don’t like quoting myself, but please see what I said in my OP (Original Post) : > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Goo \* > **If you agree with both, or disagree with both, there are plenty of other threads out there for you to argue on. I’m just after those that have opposing views, and how they reconcile them.** Thank you 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/10 "2001-11-30T06:46:46Z")
Hi **Sneeze,** Thanks for your imput. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by They Call Me Sneeze \* > \*\* The difference is, a fetus is not a human being. It’s a clump of rapidly dividing cells. \*\* Because I believe that a foetus\* _ **is** _ a human being, do you think that my views are illogical ? When does it stop being a clump of cells, and start being a human being ? I’m after your opinion, not facts, so please don’t feel like I’m attacking you… I’m probing your mind 🙂 I guess I’m surprised at myself, as I try to arrive at certain viewpoints after examining both sides of an argument and then try and make up my mind without letting my emotions take too large a role in the decision making process. And here I am with two strongly held but completely opposed views. Hmmmm… maybe I’d better have a lie down 🙂 \*This is how foetus is spelled in my country… just thought I’d let you know so you didn’t think I was making stupid spelling mistakes 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/11 "2001-11-30T07:00:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Goo \* > \*\* > > This doesn’t strike me as very logical, and I would be interested in knowing what others who have these opposing views think. If you’re the opposite, i.e. agree with capital punishment but disagree with abortion, I want to hear from you too. > \*\* It isn’t illogical to be against abortion and for capital punishment or vice versa. People who are against abortion tend to believe that the fetus is an innocent human life. People in favor of the death penalty tend to think that those who murder are eligable for death themselves. And there are some people who think abortion is wrong and are against the death penalty because all human life is sacred. **Abortion** I’m pro-choice. I see nothing morally wrong with terminating a fetus. **Death Penalty** I don’t believe that killing another human being is always morally wrong. I can kill in self defense or execute someone who is guilty of murder. That doesn’t mean I have no reservations about the capital punishment in the United States. I’m just saying that I find it morally acceptable to kill certain human beings. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Mercutio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Mercutio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercutio)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/12 "2001-11-30T07:31:14Z")
Abortion - For someone’s right to have one. If I ever got someone pregnant, I would prefer for her to stay prenant and let the fetus form into our child, but if she chose not to, I really have no right to keep her from doing so. Eitherway, until it forms a child, it’s just a clump of cells to me. “If my parents aborted me, I wouldn’t be here!” If my parents had used a condom, I wouldn’t be here, either. What’s your point? Death Penalty - Against. Again, it has been noted that our system of law is not perfect and until someone can show me eitherwise, I cannot support the detah penalty. All murderous bastards should fry, lets just make sure that they are muderous bastards before we do it. “Better to let 10 guilty men go free than see one innocent man die”, that still holds true today. Is perfection too much to ask for in this case? I don’t seem to think so. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/13 "2001-11-30T08:12:00Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by MGibson \* \*\* > [@](#): > > People who are against abortion tend to believe that the fetus is an innocent human life. \*\* **Marc** , thanks for your thoughts, but wooooosh ! I said I’m for abortion, but I also believe that a foetus is a human life. And I’m against capital punishment, for dozens of reasons, including the fact that I don’t think anybody should end a life. That’s the illogical part I was trying to point out. I’m confusing myself more and more… Oh great bestower of logic, whereever you are, please come down and swoop off with me. My brain hurts 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/14 "2001-11-30T08:14:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mercutio \* > \*\* Eitherway, until it forms a child, it’s just a clump of cells to me. \*\* Just out of interest, \*\* Mercutio,\*\* when does it form a child in your view ? Thanks for throwing your opinions out there. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Soda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@Soda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soda)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/15 "2001-11-30T10:33:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Goo \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Mercutio \* > > \*\* Eitherway, until it forms a child, it’s just a clump of cells to me. \*\* > > Just out of interest, \*\* Mercutio,\*\* when does it form a child in your view ? > > Thanks for throwing your opinions out there. 🙂 \*\* Swedish chick checking in (if that matters, I think it does). IMHO, a fetus forms a child when it is capable of living outside the womb. And I don’t think a 22 week preemie (how the hell do you spell that?) living in a womb-like machine is capable. (Not that I think parents of such a child should refuse such treatment, boy, I’m digressing here.) That said, I’m pro-choice. I would never tell another woman she is wrong to have an abortion, and I certainly want that option for myself. Don’t know if I’d ever _use_ that option, but I want it. Capital punishment, no. It doesn’t help, does it? Look at the US, executing people left and right, does it stop crime? No. And there are several cases of innocent people losing their lives for something they didn’t do. Saying it’s a risk you’ll have to take is incredibly callous. And when you think about it, not only did an innocent die, but _the guilty person is still out there, perhaps committing more crimes_. ---
**Author:** ![Second\_Echo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Second\_Echo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Second_Echo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/16 "2001-11-30T11:18:43Z")
For me, it’s easy to reconcile these views. Maybe “reconcile” is the wrong word. I really don’t think there’s an issue. Why? They’re 2 different issues, hat’s why. Apples ‘n’ oranges. Sure, on the surface, they both deal with one organism terminating another living organism, but thats where any similarities end. There are a TON of differences and variables that make up these two issues. To me, it is like comparing my position on gun control with that of U.S. foreign palicy in the Balkans. Or my views on the proposed term limits ammendment with that of my feelings on whether or not chocolate ice cream tastes good. They’re just issues. You have a right to your opinion on any number of issues without feeling a bunch of cognitive disonnance. One issue doesn’t depend on the other. They’re separate entities and as such, I dont have any problem with feeling one way on the death penalty and another on abortions. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/17 "2001-11-30T11:26:40Z")
Me too. Strongly pro-choice, passionately anti capital punishment. I’m also strongly supportive of therapeutic cloning but loudly opposed to reproductive cloning. Sometimes our stances on moral issues aren’t internally consistent - there’s no law which demands that they should be. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/18 "2001-11-30T12:04:21Z")
Thanks **reprise** and **Second Echo.** I’ll think about what you two are saying. I never really looked at it that way. I guess I just assumed that my views were either less valid or less arguable if they weren’t logical and consistent. [musing aloud] I guess I was really feeling a fraud, because I am very strongly against capital punishment, and thought that maybe my views on abortion were only for convenience sake. (I know I would have one if I found out I was pregnant, whether it was legal or not) I thought that perhaps if I wanted children, my stance would be pro-life and therefore more logical. I guess you two have opened a door that I didn’t see and I might just have a look and see if I’m comfortable seeing both issues as unrelated. [/musing aloud] Thanks everyone who replied… sometimes things become clearer when trying to write about your own views so that others can understand. It just may have been you who helped me out of my quandary… so you can all smile and feel good for helping to either clear my mind, or fight my ignorance about my own views… The Dope is so many things… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/19 "2001-11-30T12:13:19Z")
**goo** , I’ve been trying to email you for over a week and your email keeps bouncing. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070/20 "2001-11-30T12:26:16Z")
Interestingly, one of my scientist friend who actually works on the Human Genome Project is totally opposed to therapeutic cloning but in favour of reproductive cloning. She is pro-choice, but she has an ethical conflict with us growing blastocysts which we intend to destroy at a certain stage of their development. She’s not at al religious, it’s just something she doesn’t feel comfortable about even though it’s her particular branch of science. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-capital-punishment-confused-poll/96070.md?page=2)