# Abortion clinic "Buffer zones" in Massachusetts not legal, says unanimous SCOTUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698 "2014-06-26T14:58:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/241 "2014-06-27T01:12:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > **Hector\_St\_Clare** , are you advocating that disruptive protests inside churches should be allowed, or are you advocating that disruptive protests against those that want to enter a building that, among other things, provides abortions _not_ be allowed? I don’t care, but I’m advocating that they be treated the same, not one group being singled out as a designated class of heroes (or in this case, heroines) that deserves particular sympathy. I suppose if it were up to me I’d prefer to ban both than ban neither. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/242 "2014-06-27T01:14:24Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > And when was the last draft? And do you honestly think that this law isn’t in its death throes now that women can fight on the battle field? > > In order to be subjugated to that law, you first have to commit a crime. > > Getting pregnant isn’t a crime. You have shifted the goalposts. Your initial claim was that men’s bodies were treated as “sovereign” by the law. Moreover, this logic is baffling: “In order to be subjugated to that law, you first have to commit a crime.” Well, no – the law DEFINES that action as a crime, and a crime only a man can commit. Isn’t that what you specifically asked me to provide? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/243 "2014-06-27T01:20:02Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I don’t care, but I’m advocating that they be treated the same, not one group being singled out as a designated class of heroes (or in this case, heroines) that deserves particular sympathy. > > I suppose if it were up to me I’d prefer to ban both than ban neither. The first is already banned, I’m pretty sure, so I don’t know why you keep on bringing it up. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/244 "2014-06-27T01:25:43Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > 1. No one thinks that banning abortion would get rid of them entirely, just that it would reduce the incidence. Just curious - would removing all bans lead to an increased incidence? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/245 "2014-06-27T01:33:15Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > You didn’t ask me, but I’d say, when there’s a good reason for it, sure. Men and women are different- physiologically, behaviourally, cognitively, and emotionally, in their reproductive functions, talents, interests and abilities- and _within reason_, I don’t have a problem with the law treating them somewhat differently. The important thing is to treat men and women fairly and justly, not to treat them _the same_. Oh, do tell about a way that the law can treat women differently based on behavioral, cognitive, or emotional differences. I’m all ears. (Well, and uterus, since that’s generally what matters for women.) ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/246 "2014-06-27T01:33:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just curious - would removing all bans lead to an increased incidence? [It did in Canada.](http://abortionincanada.ca/stats/annual-abortion-rates/) Of course, that’s total abortions and not broken down per capita and even with no laws governing abortion we still have a lower per capita rate than the US. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/247 "2014-06-27T01:34:27Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I don’t care, but I’m advocating that they be treated the same, not one group being singled out as a designated class of heroes (or in this case, heroines) that deserves particular sympathy. > > I suppose if it were up to me I’d prefer to ban both than ban neither. I agree. So, since disruptive protests inside a church are not legal, then we are agreed that similar protests at abortion clinics should also not be legal. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/248 "2014-06-27T01:53:01Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I agree. So, since disruptive protests inside a church are not legal, then we are agreed that similar protests at abortion clinics should also not be legal. If you want to make _all_ protests that disrupt daily life (funerals, religious organizations, grocery stores etc) illegal, I suppose I’d be fine with that. I’m not going to get behind any law that requires me to feel special sympathy for people who choose up have abortions, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/249 "2014-06-27T01:54:13Z")
And back on topic: how would you ban disruptive and excessive protest tactics from situations like the one **Bricker** described? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/250 "2014-06-27T01:56:31Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > If you want to make _all_ protests that disrupt daily life (funerals, religious organizations, grocery stores etc) illegal, I suppose I’d be fine with that. > > I’m not going to get behind any law that requires me to feel special sympathy for people who choose up have abortions, though. That’s not what you originally said: > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > If it’s legal to throw disruptive protests inside a church, it should be legal to have disruptive protests outside an abortion clinic. Plus, it is illegal to have a disruptive protest at a funeral, religious organization or grocery store. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/251 "2014-06-27T02:22:07Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > It may not be tasteful, but it’s true, and I’m uncomfortable with laws that say we have to lie for the sake of politeness. > > Here’s a simple solution: if you don’t want people calling you a baby killer, _don’t have an elective abortion_. You’re a guy, aren’t you? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I had no idea there were such things. Huh. That’s the only way woman are supposed to have one, the baby murderers, if at all. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Why should P\*ssy Riot be able to offend people who are just going to church? Because it’s legal. Just like abortion. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How sure are you of who the ignorant one really is? And why are you sure? :dubious: > > How condescendingly generous of you. The morally indignant are _always_ sure. No room for silly, wimpy doubts or anything. > [@Shodan](#): > > What do you think are the legal consequences of expressing the belief that abortion is murder? None. Crackpottery is completely legal also. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > How can you tell if someone is walking into a build to get an abortion? Do you ever feel guilty about yelling at the wrong terrified young woman? And of course they couldn’t give a shit’s less difference about all the ones who have done that because… reasons. 😃 > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t actually have a spiritual welfare. Thanks all the same. You jezebel. 😉 > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > It’s very simple, if there’s a legitimate medical emergency than you should have the right to have an abortion. If not, then not. > > The moral issue here isn’t whether women should be allowed to walk to buildings, its whether they should be allowed to choose to have an abortion or not. Then his point still stands. It’s not up to you to “allow” someone to choose an abortion. That’s already been decided and, as previously stated, is legal. Perhaps you should repeat that last part as necessary until you grasp what it means? > [@Bricker](#): > > That’s an excellent question. > > I’d say that since we don’t agree on a system of morality, we should be bound by the law. You don’t agree with me; I don’t agree with you. We have a framework that allows us to promulgate law that binds both of us. Good to see you answer, **Bricker**. Thank goodness you understand that abortion is legal, yes? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Because your ignorance is your evidence? BTW, where is it legal in this country to throw disruptive protests inside a church? Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/252 "2014-06-27T02:34:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You have shifted the goalposts. I’m not moving the goal posts. You’re making bull shit comparisons between signing a meaningless piece of paper to abortion rights. > [@](#): > > Your initial claim was that men’s bodies were treated as “sovereign” by the law. > > Moreover, this logic is baffling: “In order to be subjugated to that law, you first have to commit a crime.” Well, no – the law DEFINES that action as a crime, and a crime only a man can commit. Isn’t that what you specifically asked me to provide? Are you trying to tell me that if a woman forcibly inserted a man’s penis into her vagina she wouldn’t be charged with a crime? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/253 "2014-06-27T02:59:55Z")
Yayy, an abortion thread. Another opportunity for people with irreconcilable differences to make veiled insults at each other. In the end, the law is all you have when you have those sort of irreconcilable differences, its what makes rule of law so important. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Okay, well we should make sure that Stand Your Ground laws are enacted everywhere, so that these women can carry firearms and shoot anyone who puts them in fear for their safety. That’s not how those laws work but maybe open carry escorts who are merely trying to normalize guns in society while they escort patients into the clinic. There you go, two birds with one stone. I wonder why aren’t there protesters screaming at people outside of gun stores?😛 ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/254 "2014-06-27T03:12:57Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > You’re a guy, aren’t you? > > That’s the only way woman are supposed to have one, the baby murderers, if at all. > > Because it’s legal. Just like abortion. > > The morally indignant are _always_ sure. No room for silly, wimpy doubts or anything. > > None. Crackpottery is completely legal also. > > And of course they couldn’t give a shit’s less difference about all the ones who have done that because… reasons. 😃 > > You jezebel. 😉 > > Then his point still stands. It’s not up to you to “allow” someone to choose an abortion. That’s already been decided and, as previously stated, is legal. Perhaps you should repeat that last part as necessary until you grasp what it means? > > Good to see you answer, **Bricker**. Thank goodness you understand that abortion is legal, yes? > > Russia. P\*ssy Riot’s antics weren’t legal in Russia (for the record, I think they got punished way too harshly), and they’re in the process of tightening up abortion laws as well. Thank God. The whole point at issue here is whether abortion _should_ be legal or not. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/255 "2014-06-27T03:16:09Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The whole point at issue here is whether abortion _should_ be legal or not. The point at issue is protests at clinics. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/256 "2014-06-27T03:17:34Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > There’s nothing fair or just about punishing women for getting abortions in the name of your morality. Men do not get pregnant. They also don’t get gestational diabetes, pre-eclampsia or dead from childbearing. They should not get to tell women to take such health risk they are not forced to take. > > You can go on ignoring my comments, Hector. You cannot silence my voice or my vote. Which might suggest why it’s a bad idea to give everyone a voice and a vote. I entirely disagree with you about what fairness and justice are, and continue to be amused that you think this is about ‘men’ and ‘women’. You’re aware, right, that women are pro-life in about equal numbers as men? The real division here is between people who think about themselves first and foremost, and people who think about their duties to the common good. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/257 "2014-06-27T03:19:30Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Which might suggest why it’s a bad idea to give everyone a voice and a vote. What an intriguing and enlightened point of view. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/258 "2014-06-27T03:21:50Z")
you may well think this is a strange thing to say, but when you argue for the right of a fertilized egg to become a human, you are theoretically denying 8 or 9 other eggs the chance to become fertilized and to become, eventually, human. A woman should be allowed to decide when and if she reproduces, which eggs allowed to go to term and which, not. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/259 "2014-06-27T03:23:22Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Good to see you answer, **Bricker**. Thank goodness you understand that abortion is legal, yes? Yes, I do. I wish it were otherwise, but if I hold out as legitimate the laws I like I can hardly cavil at the laws I don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/260 "2014-06-27T03:24:57Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Which might suggest why it’s a bad idea to give everyone a voice and a vote. If anything, we shouldn’t let people who think a just God is running things vote. I’m kidding of course, everyone should vote. Especially people you disagree with, since your beliefs are so goofy. > [@](#): > > I entirely disagree with you about what fairness and justice are, and continue to be amused that you think this is about ‘men’ and ‘women’. You’re aware, right, that women are pro-life in about equal numbers as men? Women fall victim to religious brainwashing as much as men. Women cut the clitorises off their daughters and granddaughters. Cultural indoctrination is a strong, strong thing. > [@](#): > > The real division here is between people who think about themselves first and foremost, and people who think about their duties to the common good. The common good is to support abortion. It makes the world a better place. Outlawing abortion makes the world a worse place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=14)