# Abortion clinic "Buffer zones" in Massachusetts not legal, says unanimous SCOTUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698 "2014-06-26T14:58:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/301 "2014-06-27T13:44:22Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > **iiandyiii** If there’s going to be abortions involved I’d want two doctors involved certifying that the decision was medically necessary, and publicly explaining their reasons. So if a woman needs an abortion, doctor-patient confidentiality no longer applies? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/302 "2014-06-27T13:46:42Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I knew you would pick up on that- it’s the _one_ poll that finds a gender difference, and it’s an outlier not just compared to other polling companies, but even compared to previous polls from Gallup as late as 2010 and I think 2012. No – most of the polls cited, even by you, show a gender difference (which is sometimes very small) – the gallup one is just the largest. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/303 "2014-06-27T13:48:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Women are [significantly more likely](http://www.gallup.com/poll/170249/split-abortion-pro-choice-pro-life.aspx) to call themselves pro-choice than men. So **Hector’s** wrong about that. > > A question for **Hector** (and **Bricker** too, if he likes) – do you put value on a woman’s right to privacy with regards to her medical decisions? For example, if your side was in charge and made the laws, and a woman and her doctor made the decision that an abortion was medically necessary (but they do not publicize _why_), should the law get involved? At what point, and in what form, should the government be involved when a woman and her doctor make a decision that might involve abortion? Sure, I think that privacy in medical decisions is generally a sound policy. So if I were making the laws, I’d say that as a matter of routine, “medical necessity” would be defined to exclude psychological distress and focus instead on substantial physical risks associated with continuing the pregnancy. But I wouldn’t mandate any sort of independent review as a matter of routine. Other medical decisions – necessary tests, or the threshold for various therapies – are not independently reviewed. But the medical community certainly has incentives to follow those standards of care – for example, a woman who came to have regrets over an abortion would have a cause of action against a physician who failed to apply the proper standard. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/304 "2014-06-27T13:49:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No – most of the polls cited, even by you, show a gender difference (which is sometimes very small) – the gallup one is just the largest. So why are you picking the largest outlier? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/305 "2014-06-27T13:49:41Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Not when the life of another person is at stake. Whose? > [@](#): > > Why? Is it that you don’t know what a personal opinion is, or that you don’t recognize that it’s all that yours is? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/306 "2014-06-27T13:51:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So why are you picking the largest outlier? That was the first recent one I found that asked a clear question on the political (not moral) question of abortion – in this case, does one call oneself pro-choice or pro-life. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/307 "2014-06-27T14:00:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That was the first recent one I found that asked a clear question on the political (not moral) question of abortion – in this case, does one call oneself pro-choice or pro-life. And what percentage of women called themselves pro-choice, in that poll that asked a clear question on the political (not moral) question of abortion? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/308 "2014-06-27T14:17:50Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > A fertilized egg is an unique human individual: an unfertilized egg isn’t. You’re just wrong. A fertilized egg is just a fertilized egg. It could be a person. It could also be an ectopic pregnancy, a trisomy, a chemical pregnancy or just a late period. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Again: I’m not a democrat and so I don’t see anything _intrinsically_ wrong with restricting political rights to a minority. I presume you’ll stop asking for tax dollars then, right? Because if you’re going to argue that I get to pay thousands of dollars in taxes but I don’t get to vote, you may want to find another country other than one founded on the principle of no taxation without representation. > [@](#): > > Yes, it doesn’t have anything to do with ‘women’ vs. ‘men’. It’s a fairly straightforward issue of human life: is it even legitimate to kill an innocent human being for your own convenience? This is why in, for example, studies like the Olson paper which I linked to, they group abortion together with other ‘life’ issues. Not surprisingly, women tend to favour or oppose abortion in about the same numbers as men. A pregnancy is not an inconvenience. I was personally on the verge of dying from severe pregnancy induced high blood pressure during both times I gave birth. A pregnancy requires a woman to take on health risks that can easily put her life and health in danger as well as make it hard for her earn a living. Abortion is a form of self defense and that’s why a pregnancy should be NOT forced on an unwitting person. Many women may not want to have an abortion for themselves but they are not in favor of anti-abortion laws. > [@](#): > > I support abortion in cases of serious medical threats to the mother, and not for any other reason (including rape, etc.). That’s not an extreme position, it’s (one of) the positions in the moderate middle. Maybe in the circles you run in, but not in mainstream America. There’s very little support for denying access to safe, legal abortions in the early stages of a pregnancy or for rape victims. > [@](#): > > Evidently we have very different ideas of what the common good is. I’d say the common good is _eminently_ served by laws that say, no, no matter how unhappy you might be, and no matter how much it may hurt your feelings, you don’t have the right to kill your child. Their life is more important than your comfort and your ‘freedom’. Sorry. Jesus H. Christ. Why do you refuse to acknowledge that pregnancy has any physical effects at all? :rolleyes: I was so sick during my first pregnancy, I was in the hospital on IV’s for three weeks. That was not discomfort or lack of freedom. It was a life threatening medical condition. I couldn’t keep food down for three weeks. I actually lose about ten pounds during that time. My blood pressure was so high during both deliveries my doctors were afraid I was going to go into convulsions. Pre-eclampsia, a medically life threatening condition, affects about 5 to 8% of all pregnancies. Cite: > **[Eclampsia: 5 things you need to know | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/28/health/eclampsia-5-things/)** > > Five things you need to know about eclampsia, following the death of Lady Sybil Branson on “Downton Abbey.” Gestational diabetes can affect 2 - 10% of all pregnancies. Cite: > **[Gestational diabetes during pregnancy: Symptoms, diagnosis, diet, and treatment](https://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy/health-and-safety/gestational-diabetes_2058)** > > Find out about gestational diabetes symptoms, diagnosis, risk factors, treatment, and diet. High blood pressure and diabetes are not discomforts. They’re not an inconvenience. They’re not minor conditions. If a woman does not want to go through with a pregnancy, it’s not evil or horrible. I personally did not want more children for three after my first was born because my pregnancy with her was so physically difficult. If I were, by some insane miracle, to get pregnant tomorrow, I would have to think long and hard about another pregnancy solely based on my physical inability to have a healthy pregnancy. And that decision would be mine to make. Not yours to deny, dictate or punish by law. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/309 "2014-06-27T14:37:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And what percentage of women called themselves pro-choice, in that poll that asked a clear question on the political (not moral) question of abortion? 50% of women called themselves pro-choice, and 44% of men called themselves pro-choice. Am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/310 "2014-06-27T14:53:54Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I support abortion in cases of serious medical threats to the mother, and not for any other reason (including rape, etc.). Friend **Hector** , this position continues to perplex me. On the one hand, you have made it perfectly clear that you consider abortion to be murder. Period. On the other, you allow that under some circumstances, murder is acceptable. I hope you can grok my confusion here. Why have you decided that in cases of “serious medical threat to the mother,” the murder of the unborn is something you support? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/311 "2014-06-27T15:34:15Z")
I wonder if \*\*Bricker \*\*and \*\*Hector \*\*demand a funeral and burial for every used tampon. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/312 "2014-06-27T15:38:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I wonder if \*\*Bricker \*\*and \*\*Hector \*\*demand a funeral and burial for every used tampon. And a police investigation of every single woman who claims to have had a miscarriage. Because I’m sure the majority of men and women will support that! ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/313 "2014-06-27T15:41:18Z")
**Hector** , dear, you are cordially invited to a personal tour of the pit: [Are you feeling enough shame and guilt, you bad women? - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=727034) ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/314 "2014-06-27T15:47:44Z")
Um, is this a debate about the Supreme Court decision, or just the usual one about abortion itself? Because I’m very “pro-choice” but I totally understand the decision. And after all, it was unanimous. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/315 "2014-06-27T15:54:53Z")
[And naïve.](http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/06/26/supreme-court-naive-buffer-zones/3S6KqzIif4ujhpzB2XgtFO/story.html) > [@](#): > > “This notion that somehow we were eliminating all these wonderful compassionate conversations between protesters and patients that persuaded women not to get abortions — that’s a fiction,” said former state representative Paul Demakis. In his district in 1994, John Salvi III had walked into a Planned Parenthood clinic and shot and killed receptionist Shannon Lowry. Salvi shot and killed receptionist Lee Ann Nichols in another abortion clinic that day. > > “I can’t say that it [peaceful conversation] never happened,” Demakis went on. “It certainly did not happen on a regular basis. What the protesters did was — in very aggressive, even offensive ways — to interfere with and to intimidate women going into health clinics to exercise their right to choose.” ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/316 "2014-06-27T15:57:27Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Friend **Hector** , this position continues to perplex me. > > On the one hand, you have made it perfectly clear that you consider abortion to be murder. Period. > > On the other, you allow that under some circumstances, murder is acceptable. > > I hope you can grok my confusion here. Why have you decided that in cases of “serious medical threat to the mother,” the murder of the unborn is something you support? Yes. This makes no sense to me either. Why is it only then that the mother’s life supersedes that of the unborn? If nothing else matters any other time, why then? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/317 "2014-06-27T16:00:53Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Yes. This makes no sense to me either. Why is it only then that the mother’s life supersedes that of the unborn? If nothing else matters any other time, why then? I really don’t think he wants the mother to actually _die_ giving birth-it’s just that she’s got to be punished by coming _close_ to death. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/318 "2014-06-27T16:06:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I really don’t think he wants the mother to actually _die_ giving birth-it’s just that she’s got to be punished by coming _close_ to death. Oh, me neither. I just think that’s be a plus. One less wanton, harlotty, shouldn’t think for herself woman lacking in shame and guilt to deal with then. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/319 "2014-06-27T16:10:43Z")
Let’s not forget the underlying reason for such thinking: > [@Bible](#): > > To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/320 "2014-06-27T16:12:46Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Yes. This makes no sense to me either. Why is it only then that the mother’s life supersedes that of the unborn? If nothing else matters any other time, why then? Self-defence is, sometimes, an acceptable reason for killing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=17)