# Abortion clinic "Buffer zones" in Massachusetts not legal, says unanimous SCOTUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698 "2014-06-26T14:58:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/341 "2014-06-27T19:29:03Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > A fetus isn’t a person. Also, and acorn isn’t a tree, and a pile of lumber isn’t a house. > > Asserting that a fetus is a person, is often done for religious reasons. And you shouldn’t get to force others to live by your religious feelings. > > Say that a religion believes that the souls of our ancestors inhabit the bodies of cows. Do you think that we should not eat cows because those religious people think so? A fetus is a person. And even if a fetus isn’t a person, the state has a legitimate interest from the outset of the pregnancy in protecting the life of the fetus that may become a person. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/342 "2014-06-27T19:31:32Z")
A gratuitous assertion may be gratuitously denied, as you keep telling us. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/343 "2014-06-27T19:36:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A fetus is a person. > > And even if a fetus isn’t a person, the state has a legitimate interest from the outset of the pregnancy in protecting the life of the fetus that may become a person. What - in this day and age - is the states ‘interest’ in the birthrate of its members? What is its interest in ‘protecting the life of the fetus’ - outside of protecting the life of the mother itself (per normal “protect and serve” statutes)? If the states interest is such, then should they not be enacting laws to segregate, hospitalize and protect from “all possible things” to ensure that the pregnancy remain viable until completion? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/344 "2014-06-27T19:38:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A fetus is a person. > > And even if a fetus isn’t a person, the state has a legitimate interest from the outset of the pregnancy in protecting the life of the fetus that may become a person. Why from the outset of the pregnancy, from the state’s point of view? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/345 "2014-06-27T19:38:17Z")
> [@simster](#): > > What - in this day and age - is the states ‘interest’ in the birthrate of its members? What is its interest in ‘protecting the life of the fetus’ - outside of protecting the life of the mother itself (per normal “protect and serve” statutes)? > > If the states interest is such, then should they not be enacting laws to segregate, hospitalize and protect from “all possible things” to ensure that the pregnancy remain viable until completion? Hey, that would be _intrusive!_ ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/346 "2014-06-27T19:41:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A fetus is a person. > > And even if a fetus isn’t a person, the state has a legitimate interest from the outset of the pregnancy in protecting the life of the fetus that may become a person. That’s why you are an advocate of state sponsored free pre-natal care, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/347 "2014-06-27T19:47:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A fetus is a person. > > And even if a fetus isn’t a person, the state has a legitimate interest from the outset of the pregnancy in protecting the life of the fetus that may become a person. Yup. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/348 "2014-06-27T20:07:55Z")
Fortunately, western liberal states (generally) recognize competing and overriding legitimate interests. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/349 "2014-06-27T20:18:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A fetus is a person. According to some primitive religions, yes. According to any sensible definition, not so much. > [@](#): > > And even if a fetus isn’t a person, the state has a legitimate interest from the outset of the pregnancy in protecting the life of the fetus that may become a person. If becoming a person is what is valuable, then the state should act when it is a person, and not before. That ingot of steel will be a gun, but we don’t regulate it as such until it is one. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/350 "2014-06-27T20:25:48Z")
Uranium isn’t a bomb, but it’s sale is regulated as though it might be used that way. But this line is silly anyways. An ingot isn’t propelling itself to become a gun. A fetus is propelling itself towards being a person. Just a bad analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/351 "2014-06-27T20:42:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A fetus is a person. > > And even if a fetus isn’t a person, the state has a legitimate interest from the outset of the pregnancy in protecting the life of the fetus that may become a person. Yay smaller government! What exact interest would that be? Are humans an endangered species? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/352 "2014-06-27T20:46:28Z")
They have a duty to protect their population, if a fetus is a person they have a duty to protect it. If it’s only a “potential” human, it’s reasonable for the state to want it to bring it to personhood for the same reason they set immigration levels - growing economies (generally) require a growing population. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/353 "2014-06-27T20:49:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Uranium isn’t a bomb, but it’s sale is regulated as though it might be used that way. But this line is silly anyways. An ingot isn’t propelling itself to become a gun. A fetus is propelling itself towards being a person. Just a bad analogy. The fetus isn’t doing much. _The mother_ is the one propelling it. So that lump of steel is being milled and machined by the mother into a gun. But when it’s half done, it’s just a curiosity. And uranium is dangerous, a baby isn’t. Unless accelerated to high speeds. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/354 "2014-06-27T20:50:59Z")
Huzzah for valid neutral justifications! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/355 "2014-06-27T21:02:34Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The fetus isn’t doing much. _The mother_ is the one propelling it. Not really. Mom isn’t sweating away over an anvil pounding together a baby. The cells latch on to the uterus without Mom’s knowledge. The cells divide and differentiate without Mom’s direction or effort. The fetus is basically doing it all. Mom is providing the energy and nutrition\*. I don’t know how you seem to think babies develop. \*not to say that’s nothing, but making a baby is kind of fire and forget as far as the adults go. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/356 "2014-06-27T21:04:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Not really. Mom isn’t sweating away over an anvil pounding together a baby. The cells latch on to the uterus without Mom’s knowledge. The cells divide and differentiate without Mom’s direction or effort. The fetus is basically doing it all. Mom is providing the energy and nutrition. I don’t know how you seem to think babies develop. If the mother isn’t doing much, remove the fetus and have it bootstrap itself into full-fledged Galthood. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/357 "2014-06-27T21:10:21Z")
You said the fetus wasn’t doing much. I did not say the mother wasn’t doing much - I said she’s the incubator. Who is wrong? Hint: you. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/358 "2014-06-27T21:18:58Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Uranium isn’t a bomb, but it’s sale is regulated as though it might be used that way. But this line is silly anyways. An ingot isn’t propelling itself to become a gun. A fetus is propelling itself towards being a person. Just a bad analogy. A fetus is propelling itself towards death, even more than it is towards being a person. Should we be treating it (and inevitably by extension, all persons) as though they have the rights due a corpse? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/359 "2014-06-27T21:20:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The fetus isn’t doing much. _The mother_ is the one propelling it. > > So that lump of steel is being milled and machined by the mother into a gun. But when it’s half done, it’s just a curiosity. > > And uranium is dangerous, a baby isn’t. Unless accelerated to high speeds. Like in a blender? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/360 "2014-06-27T21:20:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You said the fetus wasn’t doing much. I did not say the mother wasn’t doing much - I said she’s the incubator. Who is wrong? Hint: you. No, you’re just committed to dismissing the analogy. You said, “An ingot isn’t propelling itself to become a gun. A fetus is propelling itself towards being a person. Just a bad analogy.” which, I think, most people would agree is nonsense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=19)