# Abortion clinic "Buffer zones" in Massachusetts not legal, says unanimous SCOTUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698 "2014-06-26T14:58:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/361 "2014-06-27T21:23:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, you’re just committed to dismissing the analogy. > > You said, “An ingot isn’t propelling itself to become a gun. A fetus is propelling itself towards being a person. Just a bad analogy.” which, I think, most people would agree is nonsense. if left alone - that ingot of steel will remain an ingot of steel for all eternity. Not so true for a fertilized egg, zygote, embryo, fetus, etc. Which is entirely irrelevant - since there is no indication - until the fetus is ejected from the core - if said fetus will be a functioning person. Which is still irrelevant to whether or not the state has a compelling interest in making sure that all fetus’ get that chance. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/362 "2014-06-27T21:24:12Z")
It seems to me the plaintiffs more or less duped the court, or duped the credulous liberal faction while giving the conservative faction an excuse to make a favorable ruling. They did so by using a sympathetic-looking plaintiff and describing as “counseling” something that most people wouldn’t recognize as counseling. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/363 "2014-06-27T21:27:50Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Like in a blender? So long as the blender is securely covered, the baby should’t be much of a threat. Unless it’s possessed by demons. _Under no circumstances should you blend a demonically possessed baby._ ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/364 "2014-06-27T21:29:00Z")
> [@simster](#): > > if left alone - that ingot of steel will remain an ingot of steel for all eternity. > > Not so true for a fertilized egg, zygote, embryo, fetus, etc. If left alone, the zygote will dry out and die. If left _in the mother_ it may mature. > [@](#): > > Which is entirely irrelevant - since there is no indication - until the fetus is ejected from the core - if said fetus will be a functioning person. > > Which is still irrelevant to whether or not the state has a compelling interest in making sure that all fetus’ get that chance. True dat. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/365 "2014-06-27T21:30:29Z")
I am always committed to dismissing stupid analogies. A cluster of cells that self divide and differentiate is not like a ingot of iron in any meaningful sense. So no, most reasonable people would not agree it’s nonsense. > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > A fetus is propelling itself towards death, even more than it is towards being a person. Should we be treating it (and inevitably by extension, all persons) as though they have the rights due a corpse? What corpse rights are us living people missing out on? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/366 "2014-06-27T21:34:12Z")
We have to stop those fetuses before it’s too late! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/367 "2014-06-27T21:37:51Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What corpse rights are us living people missing out on? Not much, really. I mean, shooting a corpse would be a much lesser charge than shooting a person. Alas, inevitably we’ll all die. If we’re going by an argument of “what will this thing be propelled into being?” or “if left alone…” as **simster** points out, it’s the logical conclusion, though. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/368 "2014-06-27T21:38:54Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I am always committed to dismissing stupid analogies. A cluster of cells that self divide and differentiate is not like a ingot of iron in any meaningful sense. So no, most reasonable people would not agree it’s nonsense. You may believe what you would like. The stupid thing is assuming that because a fetus will become a person, if its mother keeps working on it, that it is a person the whole time. If being a person is valuable, then the value happens when it is a person. > [@](#): > > What corpse rights are us living people missing out on? Dismissal of debts is a nice one. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/369 "2014-06-27T21:52:19Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You may believe what you would like. The stupid thing is assuming that because a fetus will become a person, if its mother keeps working on it, that it is a person the whole time. But I didn’t say that and even Bricker sort of lawyered up how he suggested it. > [@](#): > > Dismissal of debts is a nice one. 😃 You might want to look into that a little before you apply for corpse status. lol. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/370 "2014-06-27T22:13:10Z")
Though I have alays wanted to say: I don’t quite get some pro-lifers. If there was a house down the street where I knew for a fact was murdering babies in the basement, I sure as shit wouldn’t just yell “baby killed” at them. I wouldn’t just send letters to my congressman. If the police wouldn’t stop them I would go in there with a gun. So I have always kind of doubted their honesty when they say they want think a fetus IS a person. At least, the one’s that don’t shoot abortion doctors. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/371 "2014-06-27T22:59:45Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > According to some primitive religions, yes. According to any sensible definition, not so much. There are pro-life atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/372 "2014-06-27T23:00:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Though I have alays wanted to say: I don’t quite get some pro-lifers. If there was a house down the street where I knew for a fact was murdering babies in the basement, I sure as shit wouldn’t just yell “baby killed” at them. I wouldn’t just send letters to my congressman. If the police wouldn’t stop them I would go in there with a gun. So I have always kind of doubted their honesty when they say they want think a fetus IS a person. At least, the one’s that don’t shoot abortion doctors. Are you a supporter of the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/373 "2014-06-27T23:03:25Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Why from the outset of the pregnancy, from the state’s point of view? I’m taking that phrase from Casey v. Planned Parenthood. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/374 "2014-06-27T23:03:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There are pro-life atheists. And there are pro-choice Catholics. So what? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/375 "2014-06-27T23:39:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you a supporter of the death penalty? Why do you ask? Are you equating using deadly force to stop multiple murders in progress with the death penalty?? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/376 "2014-06-27T23:42:38Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Which might suggest why it’s a bad idea to give everyone a voice and a vote. That is absolutely revolting. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/377 "2014-06-27T23:47:55Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > And there are pro-choice Catholics. So what? The difference is that I made no claims about religious motivation at all. You did. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/378 "2014-06-27T23:53:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Why do you ask? Presumably he’s trying to say if you’re not, you should be shooting up prisons. Because criminals being killed is the same as babies. This is a silly argument he’s making, because it presumes that innocents being killed and criminals being killed for cause, in much, much smaller numbers, are equally outrageous. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/379 "2014-06-27T23:54:23Z")
(omitted) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/380 "2014-06-27T23:55:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Why do you ask? Are you equating using deadly force to stop multiple murders in progress with the death penalty?? Just wondering about how deeply you’ve thought about “If there was a house down the street where I knew for a fact was murdering babies in the basement, I sure as shit wouldn’t just yell “baby killed” at them…” If you were morally opposed to the death penalty, I was going to point out that prisons are executing people, and you manage to avoid storming their gates. I was going to further point out that this forbearance probably arises because even though you believe the executions to be a moral wrong, you also understand that the people carrying out the executions are acting within the law, and do not believe themselves to be doing wrong. So even if you believed that the state execution of criminals amounted to murder, there are good reasons to avoid taking matters into your own hands. And having thus opened your eyes to this paradigmatic shift in thinking, I would finally, if somewhat anti-climatically, use that example to illustrate how pro-lifers are sincere but manage to avoid storming the clinic battlements. But not knowing your position on the death penalty, I’ll just skip all that and directly point out that people working in abortion clinics are are acting within the law, and do not believe themselves to be doing wrong, factors which mitigate strongly against taking direct violent action against them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=20)