# Abortion clinic "Buffer zones" in Massachusetts not legal, says unanimous SCOTUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698 "2014-06-26T14:58:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/441 "2014-06-30T15:44:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cite? Here you go: > **[psp806845.pdf](https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp806845.pdf)** > > 1014 B Interestingly, _parenting_ (which they refer to here as shared environment) eems to have pretty much no effect on your abortion attitudes. Genetics has a strong effect (0.55), which is in line with a lot of other psychological traits. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/442 "2014-06-30T15:46:39Z")
That is to say: the correlation between monozygotic twins, for abortion attitudes, is almost twice as high as for dizygotic ones. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/443 "2014-06-30T15:50:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > By “most of my pro-life compatriots” do you mean most of them out there, or most of them that you personally know? If the former, I think I’d like to see a cite that show that a majority of pro-life protesters are also pro gay marriage. I meant the people with whom I associate. But even so, most of them are not pro-gay marriage but are still pro-gay adoption. They are interested in saving lives. > [@](#): > > By the way, your anecdote, if _that_ conversation actually happened… It did. His family was (and is) very active in the K of C; we were committe chairman at the state together. > [@](#): > > , was nothing more than an anomaly-a blip on the screen that means absolutely nothing when it comes to the big picture. Twenty something years ago an anonymous friend adopted a baby. If he had gone on to found an organization that contacted women in that situation and guaranteed their potential children good homes, _that_ might of made a point in this conversation. If you can show that a significant percentage of abortion protesters also adopt potential children sight unseen, that also might make a point. As it is it has about as much impact as if, in a conversation about the national debt, I bring up an anecdote about how my friend about ten years back overpaid his taxes by about $100 and told the government to keep the change. I see your point… but I have to wonder if this would be the tone if I told you that my buddy had, 20 years ago, rescued an infant from a burning car. I suspect you’d focus on the life saved, not on his failure to found an organization to improve car safety systems. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/444 "2014-06-30T15:50:43Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > That is to say: the correlation between monozygotic twins, for abortion attitudes, is almost twice as high as for dizygotic ones. Who’s voting rights in particular would you restrict? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/445 "2014-06-30T15:53:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I see your point… but I have to wonder if this would be the tone if I told you that my buddy had, 20 years ago, rescued an infant from a burning car. I suspect you’d focus on the life saved, not on his failure to found an organization to improve car safety systems. That would depend entirely on if the conversation was about friends we know that have done brave things, as opposed to the overall problem of car safety. _In context_, your anecdote didn’t add to the conversation. edited to add: The “If that conversation actually happened” bit was a response to your saying the exact same thing to **Annie-Xmas**. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/446 "2014-06-30T15:54:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I suspect you’d focus on the life saved, not on his failure to found an organization to improve car safety systems. That would only be analogous if your buddy had set fire to the car. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/447 "2014-06-30T16:00:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That would only be analogous if your buddy had set fire to the car. I wouldn’t go quite that far. It’s analogous if the buddy had organised to support lax fire safety standards for cars. He would be congratulated for saving the life. Regardless of what role he might play and what he might prefer as far as fire safety policy. But just as we shouldn’t ignore that he saved that life, we also shouldn’t ignore that (in the hypothetical) there would hundreds if not thousands of other babies who didn’t have such a saviour on hand, and that that is a situation he supports. From a pro-life perspective, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/448 "2014-06-30T16:32:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That would depend entirely on if the conversation was about friends we know that have done brave things, as opposed to the overall problem of car safety. _In context_, your anecdote didn’t add to the conversation. > > edited to add: The “If that conversation actually happened” bit was a response to your saying the exact same thing to **Annie-Xmas**. Sure. Except that **Annie** ’s claim didn’t make much sense. I can easily understand her saying to the protester that he should go live under the Taliban – it’s his purported reply that strains credulity, since, as I laid out in my reply to her, he’s essentially saying that he wouldn’t live under the Taliban because they wouldn’t let him protest abortion clinics, but her comment to him points out that the taliban doesn’t permit abortion in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/449 "2014-06-30T16:34:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That would only be analogous if your buddy had set fire to the car. Huh? He had nothing to do with creating the pregnancy, i assure you. He stepped in to the middle of a situation in which a woman was seeking an abortion due to her belief she couldn’t care for the child, and volunteered to adopt the child. How does that remotely analogize to starting the fire? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/450 "2014-06-30T16:39:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. Except that **Annie** ’s claim didn’t make much sense. I can easily understand her saying to the protester that he should go live under the Taliban – it’s his purported reply that strains credulity, since, as I laid out in my reply to her, he’s essentially saying that he wouldn’t live under the Taliban because they wouldn’t let him protest abortion clinics, but her comment to him points out that the taliban doesn’t permit abortion in the first place. The fact that it didn’t make any sense was exactly what she was pointing out in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/451 "2014-06-30T16:49:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. Except that **Annie** ’s claim didn’t make much sense. I can easily understand her saying to the protester that he should go live under the Taliban – it’s his purported reply that strains credulity, since, as I laid out in my reply to her, he’s essentially saying that he wouldn’t live under the Taliban because they wouldn’t let him protest abortion clinics, but her comment to him points out that the taliban doesn’t permit abortion in the first place. The “this” might well have referred to open protest in general, as opposed to protesting abortion in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/452 "2014-06-30T17:03:50Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The “this” might well have referred to open protest in general, as opposed to protesting abortion in particular. I think she was pointing out that the protester was hateful idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/453 "2014-06-30T17:06:14Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The “this” might well have referred to open protest in general, as opposed to protesting abortion in particular. I suppose it’s possible, but since the conversation took place at an abortion protest, i think it’s a strained reading. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/454 "2014-06-30T17:06:43Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Which might suggest why it’s a bad idea to give everyone a voice and a vote. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Please expand on that. I repeat. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Again: I’m not a democrat and so I don’t see anything _intrinsically_ wrong with restricting political rights to a minority. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Defined by what criteria, and why? I repeat. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/455 "2014-06-30T17:06:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think she was pointing out that the protester was hateful idiot. Her story isn’t particularly credible. But even if it is, it’s also not very relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/456 "2014-06-30T17:07:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think she was pointing out that the protester was hateful idiot. Yes, in every single one of Annie’s encounters with abortion protesters, they are invariably depicted as unable to form any sort of coherent argument or rational sequence of ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/457 "2014-06-30T17:16:07Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Are you under the impression that people do not try to prevent miscarriages or take heroic measures to save fetuses? Nope. That fact doesn’t contradict my point at all. > [@](#): > > Miscarriages are tragedies and abortions are tragedies. Miscarriages happen for a myriad of reasons, most of which are not currently preventable. Abortions could be prevented with a simple change in laws. Please point me to research on preventing the roughly 30% of fertilized ova from terminating early in pregnancy. > [@](#): > > You think it is immoral to raise your voice trying to be heard in attempting to convince women to not have their children killed. No I don’t. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I think it’s immoral to harass women to prevent them from getting legal abortions. > [@](#): > > You’re entitled to your opinion but that does not give you the authority to outlaw other people from exercising their rights to do so. Saying you only believe in free speech you agree with is the same as saying you don’t believe in free speech. People shouldn’t have the right to harass others. There’s a difficult-to-draw fuzzy line here, between protesting and harassing. I’m against the harassment, not valid protest. Protest to change the law all you want. Don’t harass women exercising their legal rights. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The moral issue here isn’t whether women should be allowed to walk to buildings, its whether they should be allowed to choose to have an abortion or not. No it’s not. That issue has been legally decided. The moral issue being discussed here is whether people should have the right to protest women getting abortions as they walk between their cars and the facility. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The whole point at issue here is whether abortion _should_ be legal or not. Wrong again. See above. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > A fertilized egg is an unique human individual: an unfertilized egg isn’t. Well, it’s on its way to being a unique human individual. We can certainly agree that its genetic makeup is determined. There’s a lot more to an individual than its genetic makeup. There is no clear line of demarcation. You prefer to put it at the (fictitious) “moment of conception”. You have a right to prefer that. I prefer to put it far later. As Bricker points out, we need to use the system to work out our difference of opinion. > [@Little\_Pig](#): > > Yeah running coach. From George Carlin: > > "Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren’t they? They’re all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you’re born, you’re on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don’t want to know about you. They don’t want to hear from you. No nothing. > > No neonatal care, > no day care, > no head start, > no school lunch, > no food stamps, > no welfare, > no nothing. > > If you’re pre-born, you’re fine; if you’re preschool, you’re fucked." > > 😃 Yup, only as I’ve pointed out, they’re not even “pro-embryo” because those 30% of embryos that don’t make it past a month or two aren’t important either. They’re not “pro-life”, they’re “anti-abortion”. They have every right to be anti-abortion, but they like to dress it up as something it’s not, which is patently obvious from their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/458 "2014-06-30T18:21:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think she was pointing out that the protester was hateful idiot. > [@Bricker](#): > > I suppose it’s possible, but since the conversation took place at an abortion protest, i think it’s a strained reading. Assuming the exchange occured as reported, it strikes me as the most plausible interpretation. The alternatives are that the person was admitting that they are only interested in yelling at or shaming women, not in whether abortions are performed or not, which seems unlikely; or that the person is a simpleton. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/459 "2014-06-30T18:28:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, in every single one of Annie’s encounters with abortion protesters, they are invariably depicted as unable to form any sort of coherent argument or rational sequence of ideas. Annie aside, that doesn’t sound too far-fetched to me. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/460 "2014-06-30T18:31:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Twenty-some years ago? > > Not too well. > > Today? Today I, and I suspect most of my pro-life compatriots, would be thrilled to hear a story that ended that way. For a couple to be able to share their love with a baby that otherwise would have died, and to see that baby grow up… that’s an amazing thing. Purely out of interest - is this the same group of people you’re talking about twenty-some years ago and today? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=24)