# Abortion clinic "Buffer zones" in Massachusetts not legal, says unanimous SCOTUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698 "2014-06-26T14:58:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/481 "2014-07-01T12:15:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think the original Hippocratic Oath (who came before Jesus) included a prohibition against providing abortions. Before it was modified several times, it did indeed contain this line: _I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion._ Of course, if you want to claim that doctors should be following the original version instead of one of the modified versions used today you might want to remember how the original version began: _I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:_ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/482 "2014-07-01T12:41:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Is there any indication that any percentage of these late term abortions a result of anything \*besides \*medical necessity? Yes, there are. > [@](#): > > The researchers found that women in general delayed getting abortions if they are unsure they are pregnant, aren’t sure they want an abortion, and are disagreeing with the baby’s father. [Cite](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/10/study-ids-reasons-for-late-term-abortions/#ixzz36Dfv5OKn). Several abortionists have stated clearly - > [@](#): > > “I’ll be quite frank: most of my abortions are elective in that 20-24 week range…. In my particular case, probably 20% are for genetic reasons. And the other 80% are purely elective….” and > [@](#): > > The spin out of Washington was that it was only done for medical necessity, even though we knew it wasn’t so. I kept waiting for [the National Abortion Federation] to clarify it and they never did. I got caught up: What do we do about this secret? Who do we tell and what happens when we tell? But frankly, no one was asking me, so I didn’t have to worry. [Cite.](http://www.justfactsdaily.com/most-late-term-abortions-are-not-for-medical-reasons) Most of the time, an abortion is done on a healthy fetus and a healthy mother. This is also the case for late-term abortions. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/483 "2014-07-01T13:36:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, in every single one of Annie’s encounters with abortion protesters, they are invariably depicted as unable to form any sort of coherent argument or rational sequence of ideas. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Annie aside, that doesn’t sound too far-fetched to me. > [@Bricker](#): > > I agree: assuming the exchange took place as reported, that’s the most plausible explanation. You have to talk to these protestors to realize how incredibly stupid some of them are. Yes, some of them will take no for an answer, but the majority do not. I was once trying to hold a civilized conversation with one protestor when she stopped mid-sentence to chase a woman down the street and shove literature in her hand. They do harass woman, they do hand out incredibly stupid literature, they do kill doctors, and some of them (despite their position) [do have abortions](http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/484 "2014-07-01T13:48:44Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > … some of them (despite their position) [do have abortions](http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html) Your cite is a collection of second-hand anecdotes, but I was struck by a couple of the doctors who refuse to provide abortions to those they think are anti-abortion protesters. Should doctors refuse to perform abortions in cases where it is requested, and there are no medical contra-indications? I would have thought a consistently pro-choice board such as this one would condemn those who refuse such a request. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/485 "2014-07-01T14:01:31Z")
What? You think we want to _force_ doctors to perform abortions? ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/486 "2014-07-01T14:27:38Z")
> [@furt](#): > > You are aware that the SCOTUS agrees with you, right? > > The decision being discussed here specifically said that it only addressed “protests” and that already-existing statutes on intimidation and harassment were unaffected Yes, I am. Unfortunately, those are rather impractical to enforce, which was the reason for the buffer zones in the first place. Regardless, SCOTUS has spoken, unanimously, so that’s the law, and it’s up to us to deal with it, including the fact that harassment will continue unabated due to the difficulty of enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/487 "2014-07-01T14:31:33Z")
I believe the SCOTUS also declared abortion to be legal. Too bad the protestors can’t deal with that fact. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/488 "2014-07-01T14:33:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > … I was struck by a couple of the doctors who refuse to provide abortions to those they think are anti-abortion protesters. Should doctors refuse to perform abortions in cases where it is requested, and there are no medical contra-indications? I would have thought a consistently pro-choice board such as this one would condemn those who refuse such a request. It’s unclear what point, if any, you’re trying to make here. This is no different than this case: [Doctor Jack Cassell Tells Obama Supporters To Seek Help Elsewhere](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/02/jack-cassell-doctor-refus_n_523076.html). Doctors should be bound by the code of medical ethics they’re supposed to uphold and keep politics the hell out of medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/489 "2014-07-01T14:45:30Z")
How is refusing an abortion to an anti-abortion protester keeping politics the hell out of medicine? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/490 "2014-07-01T14:59:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Before it was modified several times, it did indeed contain this line: _I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion._ > Of course, if you want to claim that doctors should be following the original version instead of one of the modified versions used today you might want to remember how the original version began: _I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:_ No, I’m saying that prohibitions against abortion preceded Christianity. Or are you saying that because the oath is preceded by an oath to Apollo, its still just the opinion of religious zealots. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/491 "2014-07-01T15:04:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How is refusing an abortion to an anti-abortion protester keeping politics the hell out of medicine? What makes you think they are refusing protestors abortions on a political basis? If I knew someone had a strong moral objection to a procedure I would probably refuse to perform it too. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/492 "2014-07-01T15:04:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What? You think we want to _force_ doctors to perform abortions? Some of you do. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I believe the SCOTUS also declared abortion to be legal. Too bad the protestors can’t deal with that fact. That decision wasn’t exactly unanimous like this one was. > [@Shodan](#): > > How is refusing an abortion to an anti-abortion protester keeping politics the hell out of medicine? > > Regards, > Shodan It could have been a personal conviction not to give (elective?)abortions to hypocrites. In the end,I suspect a lot of the anti-abortion folks are really anti-abortion unless THEY need one. Then its a special case because their daughter has a bright future that would be derailed by being a single teen mother. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/493 "2014-07-01T15:05:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Some of you do. I’m sure you can offer a citation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/494 "2014-07-01T15:09:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, I’m saying that prohibitions against abortion preceded Christianity. Or are you saying that because the oath is preceded by an oath to Apollo, its still just the opinion of religious zealots. Of _course_ that part of the oath was a religious matter-the debate wasn’t about when life started, but when the soul entered the body. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/495 "2014-07-01T15:12:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It could have been a personal conviction not to give (elective?)abortions to hypocrites. In the end,I suspect a lot of the anti-abortion folks are really anti-abortion unless THEY need one. Then its a special case because their daughter has a bright future that would be derailed by being a single teen mother. There are websites(strictly anecdotal) by clinic workers telling stories of just that sort of situation. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/496 "2014-07-01T15:58:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How is refusing an abortion to an anti-abortion protester keeping politics the hell out of medicine? It’s not. Are you under the impression I approve of doctors acting like this? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It could have been a personal conviction not to give (elective?)abortions to hypocrites. In the end,I suspect a lot of the anti-abortion folks are really anti-abortion unless THEY need one. Then its a special case because their daughter has a bright future that would be derailed by being a single teen mother. That sounds like what it was. If the story is true, those doctors are no better than the Cassell guy in my previous cite, who refused to provide **any** kind of treatment to Obama supporters! They probably justify it as a transgression for the greater good (“teach the anti-abortionists a lesson”) but I consider it a violation of medical ethics. Doctors have a professional responsibility not to get drawn into either side of the anti-abortion hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/497 "2014-07-01T15:59:28Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It’s not. Are you under the impression I approve of doctors acting like this? Aren’t they entitled to at least a bit of quiet gloating, if not the Full Nelson Muntz Treatment? ---
**Author:** ![orangeapples](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@orangeapples](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orangeapples)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/498 "2014-07-01T17:39:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Er…kinda. > > Both then, and now, we’re talking about Knights of Columbus. > > Individuals have gotten too old to stand outside clinics and pray the rosary **(which is all we do, by the way; we don’t initiate conversations with the clinic’s clientele)** or have passed away, and younger members have joined and taken their places. So there are some faces still there from 20 years ago, but also some new ones. (Bolding mine) Perhaps this has already been addressed in the thread and I missed it, if so I beg your pardon, but your earlier post indicated your friend convinced a young woman to allow him and his wife to adopt so she wouldn’t abort her pregnancy. > [@](#): > > Anecdote: twenty-odd years ago, a good friend of mine was outside an abortion clinic, and a young woman passed him; he asked her to reconsider what she was doing. She said angrily to him, “Yeah, you’re here now, but where will you be when the baby is born and I can’t take care of it because I have no money? If you’re so serious about this, why don’t you take this baby?” > > He said, “Let me call my wife.” > > Not only did he and his wife adopt the baby, but they kept her mother in her life, and all three of them recently watched that young woman graduate from college. > > One starfish. That might not constitute harassment, but it’s certainly a less passive form of protest than praying the rosary. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/499 "2014-07-01T17:47:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What makes you think they are refusing protestors abortions on a political basis? Because that’s what they said they were doing in the cite. > [@wolfpup](#): > > It’s not. Are you under the impression I approve of doctors acting like this? **Not Really All That Bright** seems to, if you don’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/500 "2014-07-01T17:51:33Z")
> [@orangeapples](#): > > (Bolding mine) > > Perhaps this has already been addressed in the thread and I missed it, if so I beg your pardon, but your earlier post indicated your friend convinced a young woman to allow him and his wife to adopt so she wouldn’t abort her pregnancy. > > That might not constitute harassment, but it’s certainly a less passive form of protest than praying the rosary. OK - so what? I think the point of the anecdote is to disprove the assertion that anti-abortion types care nothing for children or mothers and don’t want to care for them. This is obviously false, as witnessed by the vast array of prenatal support, charitable support, and adoption services they offer in addition to protesting abortion. George Carlin, in other words, was lying thru his teeth. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=26)