# Abortion clinic "Buffer zones" in Massachusetts not legal, says unanimous SCOTUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698 "2014-06-26T14:58:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/521 "2014-07-02T15:16:40Z")
> [@orangeapples](#): > > (Bolding mine) > > Perhaps this has already been addressed in the thread and I missed it, if so I beg your pardon, but your earlier post indicated your friend convinced a young woman to allow him and his wife to adopt so she wouldn’t abort her pregnancy. > > That might not constitute harassment, but it’s certainly a less passive form of protest than praying the rosary. Sure. I said “That’s all we do,” using the present tense, as opposed to, “That’s all we’ve ever done.” Twenty years ago, we did initiate conversations with abortion-minded clinic patients. Following the Rudolph bombing in 1998, we decided that even the initiation of conversation had the potential of being viewed as threatening. Although the spectre of that violence faded, we never really revisited that decision. So what I said was an accurate current description, and an accurate description of our behavior in 1998 forward, but not true of twenty years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/522 "2014-07-02T15:17:42Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Or, you know, she was using “talked” in a literal sense. Unless you’ve met **Annie-Xmas** , of course. I think we spoke on the phone, actually, when her arm was broken, although I could be misremembering. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/523 "2014-07-02T15:18:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’ve talked to me. I’m anti-abortion, and I have no objections in the world to same-sex couples adopting. > > This omission makes me suspect that your anecdotes suffer from comprehension bias. Am I the only anti-abortion person you’ve ever heard of that feels this way? Going by what I’ve seen over the years, you are the _rare_ exception, not the rule, when it comes to how abortion protesters feel about same-sex couples adopting children. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/524 "2014-07-02T15:19:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think we spoke on the phone, actually, when her arm was broken, although I could be misremembering. As she could, perhaps? It seems a bit of a brisk walk to have gone straight to comprehension bias. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/525 "2014-07-02T16:57:54Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > As she could, perhaps? It seems a bit of a brisk walk to have gone straight to comprehension bias. Good point. My bad. ETA: doubly my bad. I intended to say “Confirmation bias,” not “comprehension bias,” whatever that latter is. I blame auto-correct. It might even be true. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/526 "2014-07-02T17:03:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Going by what I’ve seen over the years, you are the _rare_ exception, not the rule, when it comes to how abortion protesters feel about same-sex couples adopting children. Well, over the years, my attitudes have evolved about same-sex marriage, but even when I believed that an opposite-sex couple was the ideal choice to adopt a child, I never would have weighed a same-sex adoption against an abortion and picked the abortion. I suspect you may simply be assuming that because an abortion protester also disfavors same-sex adoption, he would weigh the two and decide against the same-sex couple adoption. But he could simply believe that opposite-sex couples are a better choice _in general_ while still acknowledging that same-sex couple adoption was better than death. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/527 "2014-07-02T17:14:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, over the years, my attitudes have evolved about same-sex marriage, but even when I believed that an opposite-sex couple was the ideal choice to adopt a child, I never would have weighed a same-sex adoption against an abortion and picked the abortion. > > I suspect you may simply be assuming that because an abortion protester also disfavors same-sex adoption, he would weigh the two and decide against the same-sex couple adoption. But he could simply believe that opposite-sex couples are a better choice _in general_ while still acknowledging that same-sex couple adoption was better than death. The only thing I am assuming(with good cause, if my browsing through [this list](http://www.abortionreason.com/antiabortion-organizations.php) is any indication) is that a vast majority of organized anti-abortion groups are against letting gays adopt. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/528 "2014-07-02T17:21:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, over the years, my attitudes have evolved about same-sex marriage, but even when I believed that an opposite-sex couple was the ideal choice to adopt a child, I never would have weighed a same-sex adoption against an abortion and picked the abortion. > > I suspect you may simply be assuming that because an abortion protester also disfavors same-sex adoption, he would weigh the two and decide against the same-sex couple adoption. But he could simply believe that opposite-sex couples are a better choice _in general_ while still acknowledging that same-sex couple adoption was better than death. This question may be too vague a one, but as you’ve talked about pro-life views from the horses’ mouth as it were; you speak about pro-lifers possibly believing that while same-sex couples are inferior as parents go to opposite-sex parents, that it’s still better than death. Do you think there’s a “line” that pro-lifers would in general draw as a point where they might say “No, I value life, but in \ death is, sadly, preferable.” Truth be told I’m finding it hard to think of any situation that would be potentially so terrible that is both realistic and predictable (Would-be parents with a history of unsavoury activities with children, for example, would be dealt with criminally). Severe health concerns on the part of parents or child, perhaps? But as a hypothetical, is there a point in which pro-lifers, or you yourself perhaps, would consider life to be a less acceptable choice? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/529 "2014-07-02T17:25:55Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Does this give the holier-than-thou the right to scream “baby killer” at women right up until they enter the facility? If so, that’s pretty sad and even sadder that some would cheer the ruling. Or would a 10 foot buffer be permissible? As long as the protesters are on public property (sidewalks?) and not private property, they can stand there…right? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/530 "2014-07-02T17:34:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The only thing I am assuming(with good cause, if my browsing through [this list](http://www.abortionreason.com/antiabortion-organizations.php) is any indication) is that a vast majority of organized anti-abortion groups are against letting gays adopt. **Bricker** , do you know of any anti-abortion groups that guide people towards people that want to adopt their potential babies that allow same-sex couples to register with their group? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/531 "2014-07-02T18:19:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The only thing I am assuming(with good cause, if my browsing through [this list](http://www.abortionreason.com/antiabortion-organizations.php) is any indication) is that a vast majority of organized anti-abortion groups are against letting gays adopt. How are you reaching that conclusion? Is there a column I can’t see? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/532 "2014-07-02T18:21:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > **Bricker** , do you know of any anti-abortion groups that guide people towards people that want to adopt their potential babies that allow same-sex couples to register with their group? Sure: [http://www.adopthelp.com/](http://www.adopthelp.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/533 "2014-07-02T18:23:14Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > This question may be too vague a one, but as you’ve talked about pro-life views from the horses’ mouth as it were; you speak about pro-lifers possibly believing that while same-sex couples are inferior as parents go to opposite-sex parents, that it’s still better than death. Do you think there’s a “line” that pro-lifers would in general draw as a point where they might say “No, I value life, but in \ death is, sadly, preferable.” > > Truth be told I’m finding it hard to think of any situation that would be potentially so terrible that is both realistic and predictable (Would-be parents with a history of unsavoury activities with children, for example, would be dealt with criminally). Severe health concerns on the part of parents or child, perhaps? But as a hypothetical, is there a point in which pro-lifers, or you yourself perhaps, would consider life to be a less acceptable choice? Sure – a colorable risk of death or serious medical consequence for the prospective mother would certainly be such a case where the unborn child’s death was not intended or welcomed but preferred to the death of the mother. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/534 "2014-07-02T18:30:58Z")
Just what is it that makes the mother’s life worth more than that of the fetus, to the point that her potential death or even “serious medical consequences” matter more than the \*actual \*death of the fetus? :dubious: Just what is the level of potential harm to the mother that merely equals that of the life of what you claim to be a full human being? And how can that principle be applied to other situations? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/535 "2014-07-02T18:38:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure: [http://www.adopthelp.com/](http://www.adopthelp.com/) I’m not finding anything on that website that indicates that they do any anti-abortion advocacy. They seem to be out there to help people that have already decided to give their baby up for adoption. In fact, the profile of one of their workers, Meredith, lists having worked for Planned Parenthood on her resume. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/536 "2014-07-02T19:00:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m not finding anything on that website that indicates that they do any anti-abortion advocacy. They seem to be out there to help people that have already decided to give their baby up for adoption. In fact, the profile of one of their workers, Meredith, lists having worked for Planned Parenthood on her resume. And I have two former Planned Parenthood workers at my pro-life counseling center. But OK, you’re looking for an organization that simultaneously does anti-abortion advocacy AND adoption work? I can tell you that that’s unlikely, simply because the more common-sense approach is for the anti-abortion group to simply provide referrals to the adoption group, rather than trying to keep both functions – which require entirely different skill sets, resources, and methods – under one roof. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/537 "2014-07-02T19:01:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I can tell you that that’s unlikely, simply because the more common-sense approach is for the anti-abortion group to simply provide referrals to the adoption group, rather than trying to keep both functions – which require entirely different skill sets, resources, and methods – under one roof. How about the flip side of this - are there organisations which advocate for pro-choice policy, and also provide adoption support? Not necessarily a question to you, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/538 "2014-07-02T19:02:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Just what is it that makes the mother’s life worth more than that of the fetus, to the point that her potential death or even “serious medical consequences” matter more than the \*actual \*death of the fetus? :dubious: > > Just what is the level of potential harm to the mother that merely equals that of the life of what you claim to be a full human being? And how can that principle be applied to other situations? Well said. It’s advocating for a 100% risk of one person’s death by abortion vs., say, a 50% risk of another’s death by infection. That being said, a woman who has an abortion for medical reasons can still go on to bear more children. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/539 "2014-07-02T19:06:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I have two former Planned Parenthood workers at my pro-life counseling center. > > But OK, you’re looking for an organization that simultaneously does anti-abortion advocacy AND adoption work? > > I can tell you that that’s unlikely, simply because the more common-sense approach is for the anti-abortion group to simply provide referrals to the adoption group, rather than trying to keep both functions – which require entirely different skill sets, resources, and methods – under one roof. I’ll try to make it a little simpler.How about an anti-abortion group that openly advocates for same-sex couples adopting? That list I gave you is pretty damn large and comprehensive-surely somewhere on that list is a group that thinks adoption by same sex couples is just fine and dandy? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/540 "2014-07-02T19:20:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ll try to make it a little simpler.How about an anti-abortion group that openly advocates for same-sex couples adopting? That list I gave you is pretty damn large and comprehensive-surely somewhere on that list is a group that thinks adoption by same sex couples is just fine and dandy? Nothing on that list indicates a position of the group one way or the other on the question of same-sex adoption, so I have no idea, and am disinclined to search down the list, researching each group. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=28)