# Abortion clinic "Buffer zones" in Massachusetts not legal, says unanimous SCOTUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698 "2014-06-26T14:58:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/41 "2014-06-26T17:40:07Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I have to agree with **BobLibDem**. If you want to stop something, even something you find incredibly repugnant, you go about it in ways that actually work. Intimidation of those who seek or provide abortions seems like the kind of thing that’s more of a salve to the conscience of the anti-abortion folk than a means to get what they want. I think it’s the temptation coming from the closeness of the action that gives the false impression that it’s actually helping the cause. It’s difficult to think if you’re mailing off a check to an organisation that you support that you’re having some demonstrable effect, but if someone’s yelling at the target of their ire while carrying an in vitro photo on a placard, it can feel more like they’re on the front lines defending those which need defending even though it’s entirely counter-productive. I didn’t say that I consider clinic protests to be effective or tasteful. they should absolutely be legal though. Do you want to ban all forms of political protest, or just this one ? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/42 "2014-06-26T17:44:36Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I didn’t say that I consider clinic protests to be effective or tasteful. they should absolutely be legal though. In post #15 you mentioned the lives of unborn children. How are the lives of unborn children relevant, then, if the protests are not effective? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/43 "2014-06-26T17:44:59Z")
So, by the same reasoning, I should be able to carry political placards within less than 35 feet of polling places as part of my free speech rights? Possibly right up to the voting booth itself? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/44 "2014-06-26T17:46:06Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > And of course it’s reasonable to wonder how much of the energy that fuels the protesters at reproductive health centers is simple misogyny. I would guess it’s the primary source. Not that any anti-choice advocate would ever admit to that. What I want to know is why the party that fights abortion also fights WIC, food stamps or any type of welfare? Save the fetus, starve the child. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/45 "2014-06-26T17:46:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Does this give the holier-than-thou the right to scream “baby killer” at women right up until they enter the facility? If so, that’s pretty sad and even sadder that some would cheer the ruling. Or would a 10 foot buffer be permissible? In 2000, the Court upheld an eight-foot barrier. So at a minimum, eight feet is a constitutionally permissible balance between First Amendment rights and maintaining the safety and public order interests of a state. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/46 "2014-06-26T17:47:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In post #15 you mentioned the lives of unborn children. How are the lives of unborn children relevant, then, if the protests are not effective? I don’t know if they’re effective or not. Do you have a study? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/47 "2014-06-26T17:49:04Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > And I have seen protestors putting their hands on the women after being told NO. That’s battery, a crime under the laws of any state in the country. There are, in other words, already constitutionally valid laws that prohibit unwanted touching. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/48 "2014-06-26T17:53:19Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I don’t know if they’re effective or not. Do you have a study? Anecdote: twenty-odd years ago, a good friend of mine was outside an abortion clinic, and a young woman passed him; he asked her to reconsider what she was doing. She said angrily to him, “Yeah, you’re here now, but where will you be when the baby is born and I can’t take care of it because I have no money? If you’re so serious about this, why don’t you take this baby?” He said, “Let me call my wife.” Not only did he and his wife adopt the baby, but they kept her mother in her life, and all three of them recently watched that young woman graduate from college. One starfish. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/49 "2014-06-26T17:57:17Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I don’t know if they’re effective or not. Do you have a study? I’ll go out on a limb and say that if this tactic worked, pro-lifers wouldn’t use some of the other tactics in their arsenal. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/50 "2014-06-26T18:01:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In 2000, the Court upheld an eight-foot barrier. > > So at a minimum, eight feet is a constitutionally permissible balance between First Amendment rights and maintaining the safety and public order interests of a state. So 8 feet is permissible but 35 feet is not. So the Supremes rule that the Constitution is violated by the 27 feet difference in the size of the buffer zone. And THAT has made you giddy? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/51 "2014-06-26T18:05:00Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I don’t know if they’re effective or not. Do you have a study? If you don’t know if they’re effective, then why did you mention unborn children? How is that relevant to whether women (who may or may not have been raped, and who may or may not be seeking an abortion) going for medical care should have “baby killer” shouted in their face? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/52 "2014-06-26T18:06:32Z")
Okay, well we should make sure that Stand Your Ground laws are enacted everywhere, so that these women can carry firearms and shoot anyone who puts them in fear for their safety. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/53 "2014-06-26T18:11:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you don’t know if they’re effective, then why did you mention unborn children? How is that relevant to whether women (who may or may not have been raped, and who may or may not be seeking an abortion) going for medical care should have “baby killer” shouted in their face? It may not be tasteful, but it’s true, and I’m uncomfortable with laws that say we have to lie for the sake of politeness. Here’s a simple solution: if you don’t want people calling you a baby killer, _don’t have an elective abortion_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/54 "2014-06-26T18:13:28Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > It may not be tasteful, but it’s true, and I’m uncomfortable with laws that say we have to lie for the sake of politeness. > > Here’s a simple solution: if you don’t want people calling you a baby killer, _don’t have an elective abortion_. And apparently, don’t get raped, don’t go to women’s medical clinics for other reasons, don’t have a non-elective abortion, etc. I wonder what kind of person can yell “baby killer” into the face of complete strangers (who are usually young women) who may have been raped, and/or may not be contemplating abortion at all. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/55 "2014-06-26T18:16:48Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > It may not be tasteful, but it’s true, and I’m uncomfortable with laws that say we have to lie for the sake of politeness. > > Here’s a simple solution: if you don’t want people calling you a baby killer, _don’t have an elective abortion_. It’s not universally accepted that it’s true. Obviously the women in question don’t think they are killing babies. Obviously the doctors don’t, either. If you want to think that a clump of cells the size of a booger is a baby, knock yourself out. Want the laws changed, have your go at the process. I don’t wish you well, but you have every right to try to influence legislation. I happen to disagree with the concept that it’s acceptable to verbally harass and intimidate the women seeking a perfectly legal procedure. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/56 "2014-06-26T18:18:02Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Okay, well we should make sure that Stand Your Ground laws are enacted everywhere, so that these women can carry firearms and shoot anyone who puts them in fear for their safety. Interestingly enough, would that include the fetus in utero? > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > It may not be tasteful, but it’s true, and I’m uncomfortable with laws that say we have to lie for the sake of politeness. > > Here’s a simple solution: if you don’t want people calling you a baby killer, _don’t have an elective abortion_. Yes, but at that point they haven’t had one. Have they? So, no. It’s not true. Also, are they still baby killers if the abortion is not elective? Seems like a weird line. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/57 "2014-06-26T18:18:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Want the laws changed, have your go at the process. That’s for wimps. Better to use the regulatory system to shut down clinics, attack their funding, and scare the shit out of women and doctors. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/58 "2014-06-26T18:23:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I wonder what kind of person can yell “baby killer” into the face of complete strangers (who are usually young women) who may have been raped, and/or may not be contemplating abortion at all. I’m sure they enjoy it. That whole smug, self righteous thing they have going. There’s a song titled _“They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Love”_. Yeah, right. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/59 "2014-06-26T18:26:07Z")
Hmmmm… let see how far the free speech thing goes. As repugnant as I find the Westboro Baptist Church, they should immediately sue to get grave side access for their protests. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/60 "2014-06-26T18:36:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Anecdote: twenty-odd years ago, a good friend of mine was outside an abortion clinic, and a young woman passed him; he asked her to reconsider what she was doing. She said angrily to him, “Yeah, you’re here now, but where will you be when the baby is born and I can’t take care of it because I have no money? If you’re so serious about this, why don’t you take this baby?” > > He said, “Let me call my wife.” > > Not only did he and his wife adopt the baby, but they kept her mother in her life, and all three of them recently watched that young woman graduate from college. > > One starfish. Sweet anecdote and entirely in line with the pro-choice view-point. If protestors want to line the streets with signs offering to adopt the future babies of women who are entering abortion clinics and some women agree, more power to them. Heck they can even peacefully hand out flyers from their local adoption agency as far as I’m concerned. That is quite different from doing their best to intimidate, harass and cause emotional pain women at a very vulnerable time. It is clear that the current anti-abortion strategy is very light on carrot and very strong on stick. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=4)