# Abortion clinic "Buffer zones" in Massachusetts not legal, says unanimous SCOTUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698 "2014-06-26T14:58:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/81 "2014-06-26T19:09:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The Supreme Court, in its wisdom, has put the legality of abortion outside of the political process. My post is a list of reasons that this is utterly false. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/82 "2014-06-26T19:14:57Z")
According to [this](https://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html#1), it’s 1%, not half of one percent. But in any case, that’s still thousands of rape victims. So if someone has yelled at lots of women going into women’s clinics, there’s a very high chance that they’ve yelled at a rape victim. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/83 "2014-06-26T19:18:43Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I mean, I personally have seen gay-rights protesters disrupt church services and scream epithets at little old ladies; and of course groups like Act-Up did far worse. It would be dishonest, however, to act as if groups like that were typical of gay-rights supporters. Should the behavior of a handful of extremists eliminate the rights of the mainstream? More to the point, how about those P\*ssy Riot protesters in Russia a year or two ago, breaking into a church and singing blasphemous songs during a worship service? Seems to me like a lot of cultural liberals viewed them as heroes. Same way with the protesters in places like Egypt, Thailand, Ukraine and Venezuela, shutting down the normal functioning of government and society. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/84 "2014-06-26T19:19:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cite? So that would be, “No,” you were not aware of this? well, turns out, my mistake. It’s a full 1 percent. The "one-half percent’ figure I was thinking of belongs to the other category of pregnancy which unites strong support of abortion rights, even from those otherwise opposed: incest. [Cite (PDF).](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/85 "2014-06-26T19:20:27Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > More to the point, how about those P\*ssy Riot protesters in Russia a year or two ago, breaking into a church and singing blasphemous songs during a worship service? Seems to me like a lot of cultural liberals viewed them as heroes. I’m not sure your description is at all accurate, but they were protesting the relationship of the Russian state and the Orthodox church. How does that relate to abortion again? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/86 "2014-06-26T19:22:35Z")
I’m a little skeptical of such statistics. Seems to me a lot of rape victims who seek abortions would rather not bring it up. For many, it will have been too recent to want to mention to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/87 "2014-06-26T19:22:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So that would be, “No,” you were not aware of this? well, turns out, my mistake. It’s a full 1 percent. The "one-half percent’ figure I was thinking of belongs to the other category of pregnancy which unites strong support of abortion rights, even from those otherwise opposed: incest. > > [Cite (PDF).](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf) I ninja’d your cite. But this doesn’t conflict with my point at all – if someone yells at lots of women who go into clinics, then they’ve probably yelled at rape victims. They’ve also yelled at lots and lots of women who go into clinics for a myriad of other reasons. Yelling at women because of the buildings they choose to enter is morally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/88 "2014-06-26T19:23:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > According to [this](https://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html#1), it’s 1%, not half of one percent. But in any case, that’s still thousands of rape victims. So if someone has yelled at lots of women going into women’s clinics, there’s a very high chance that they’ve yelled at a rape victim. A very high chance? That’s true of the community of all protesters, of course, but much less so of any given protester. In any event, your earlier language suggested it should be viewed as a common occurrence. Your request for a cite also suggested that you were unaware of the small percentage - true? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/89 "2014-06-26T19:25:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not sure your description is at all accurate, but they were protesting the relationship of the Russian state and the Orthodox church. How does that relate to abortion again? It relates to the fact that in some cultural-liberal circles, disruptive and disorderly protest is cool as long as it offends some groups (here, supporters of the Russian state and the Orthodox church), and not others (women who want an abortion). The concerns here, I think, have less to do with how inherently disorderly, tasteless or irritating the protests are, and more to do with people being really, really invested in being able to have guilt-free and shame-free abortions. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/90 "2014-06-26T19:25:48Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > guilt-free and shame-free abortions. I had no idea there were such things. Huh. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/91 "2014-06-26T19:25:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A very high chance? > > That’s true of the community of all protesters, of course, but much less so of any given protester. Depends on the protester – if they’ve confronted hundreds of women, then there’s a very high chance they’ve confronted a rape victim. > [@](#): > > In any event, your earlier language suggested it should be viewed as a common occurrence. It is common – many thousands of abortions-due-to-rape per year. > [@](#): > > Your request for a cite also suggested that you were unaware of the small percentage - true? My request for a cite was because I wanted to know where you got your number – and it turns out your number was wrong. But I found it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/92 "2014-06-26T19:26:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, an abortion actually _matters_. You could throw dead people into the Grand Canyon and it wouldn’t make much of a difference. Funerals are cultural gatherings that have symbolic meaning. An abortion has real, daily impact on a family for the rest of their lives. If you can’t afford another child, that abortion makes your life, and the lives of those around you better. > > That is an assertion based on nothing more than your personal preference. Watch, “Abortions are supposed to be a respectful and solemn occasions that honor the tough decision the woman is making. Protests of any kind are inappropriate and shouldn’t be allowed.” > > In other words, you’re demanding that your position be elevated based on nothing but personal preference. This fealty to the state of the law is refreshing. Of course, it vanishes when you find yourself supporting a position the law doesn’t. Then you discuss the importance of moral commitments, and how the law has been used for immoral purposes, and you’re quite comfortable demanding that your position be elevated based on personal preference. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/93 "2014-06-26T19:27:49Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The concerns here, I think, have less to do with how inherently disorderly, tasteless or irritating the protests are, and more to do with people being really, really invested in being able to have guilt-free and shame-free abortions. You continue to dodge my question – do you believe it’s morally okay to confront and yell at women, because of the building they choose to enter, even though they may have been raped and may not be seeking an elective abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/94 "2014-06-26T19:28:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Depends on the protester – if they’ve confronted hundreds of women, then there’s a very high chance they’ve confronted a rape victim. > > It is common – many thousands of abortions-due-to-rape per year. Yes, there are many thousands. But there are also many clinics, and each of those clinics have many open hours each day: far more open hours, and patients, than the “many thousands” of abortions due to rape. So the likelihood of any given protester’s encountering a rape victim is quite low. Do you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/95 "2014-06-26T19:28:41Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > It relates to the fact that in some cultural-liberal circles, disruptive and disorderly protest is cool as long as it offends some groups (here, supporters of the Russian state and the Orthodox church), and not others (women who want an abortion). You caught me: I don’t care if people offend Vladimir Putin. I am duly chastened. (Actually you didn’t go far enough: I think everybody should try to offend Putin when it’s possible. I also don’t think much of religious groups that get intertwined with dictatorial governments.) > [@](#): > > The concerns here, I think, have less to do with how inherently disorderly, tasteless or irritating the protests are, and more to do with people being really, really invested in being able to have guilt-free and shame-free abortions. You’re correct that I don’t find abortion shameful or guilty, but I don’t know what any one person feels while walking into a clinic and that’s not a matter of law. I don’t think they should have to be screamed at and threatened when they go to a clinic. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/96 "2014-06-26T19:30:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, there are many thousands. But there are also many clinics, and each of those clinics have many open hours each day: far more open hours, and patients, than the “many thousands” of abortions due to rape. So the likelihood of any given protester’s encountering a rape victim is quite low. > > Do you agree? “Any given protester”? What do you mean? Do you mean “average guy who spends several hours per day yelling at women who enter women’s clinics”? Do you mean “average guy who has spent one hour, once in his life, yelling at women who enter women’s clinics”? Because one is very likely to have yelled at a rape victim. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/97 "2014-06-26T19:38:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You caught me: I don’t care if people offend Vladimir Putin. I am duly chastened. (Actually you didn’t go far enough: I think everybody should try to offend Putin when it’s possible. I also don’t think much of religious groups that get intertwined with dictatorial governments.) > > You’re correct that I don’t find abortion shameful or guilty, but I don’t know what any one person feels while walking into a clinic and that’s not a matter of law. I don’t think they should have to be screamed at and threatened when they go to a clinic. And I don’t think much of people choosing to have abortions (or of Russian ‘democracy’ activists) so we’re even, I suppose. Do you think that Russian Orthodox worshippers should have the right to attend a church service in peace and with decorum, without being annoyed by protesters? If not, then why should women who want abortions have the right to do their thing without being annoyed by protesters? ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/98 "2014-06-26T19:40:34Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I didn’t say that I consider clinic protests to be effective or tasteful. they should absolutely be legal though. > > Do you want to ban all forms of political protest, or just this one ? Well, it’s the harassment that I object to. I’d hate to go to the dentist’s office if I was going to be harassed when I go there. I mean, it’s already SO much fun. If the laws are sufficient to prevent harassment, then fine. But I don’t think that they are, or this wouldn’t be an issue in the first place. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Wait, what? > > Are you comparing ‘having an abortion’ to ‘having a funeral’? > > Funerals are supposed to be respectful and solemn occasions that honour the deceased and their relatives, protests of any kind are inappropriate and shouldn’t be allowed. An abortion clinic is not a grave site. > [@Lobohan](#): > > In other words, you’re demanding that your position be elevated based on nothing but personal preference. Well put. We see where Hector stands: “Anything is right if it supports my preferences.” The two situations are perfectly equivalent. I’d be more sympathetic to anti-abortion people if they really showed that they care about embryos, but they don’t. FAR more embryos don’t make it past the first trimester (about one third). If every conception created a human life worthy of the same protection as a baby, why isn’t there any uproar over this terrible loss of human life, which might be preventable? But no, crickets. Anti-abortion people are more concerned about the act of abortion than the loss of what they call human life. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/99 "2014-06-26T19:40:48Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > And I don’t think much of people choosing to have abortions (or of Russian ‘democracy’ activists) so we’re even, I suppose. Do you think that Russian Orthodox worshippers should have the right to attend a church service in peace and with decorum, without being annoyed by protesters? If not, then why should women who want abortions have the right to do their thing without being annoyed by protesters? How about women who don’t choose to have abortions, women who have been raped, and women who are choosing to enter a certain building for a myriad of other reasons? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/100 "2014-06-26T19:43:52Z")
I think it’s extremely insulting, as well as profoundly ignorant, to claim that a woman getting an abortion doesn’t truly understand what she’s doing and why, and what the consequences will be for \*everyone \*involved in a difficult, complex life decision. She understands far better than a stranger screaming at her does, at any rate, and certainly better than a religious zealot trying to convert her in those last few feet before the door. But, that failing, there’s always the [Dr. Tiller Solution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr_tiller)to saving life, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=6)