# Abortion clinic "Buffer zones" in Massachusetts not legal, says unanimous SCOTUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698 "2014-06-26T14:58:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/101 "2014-06-26T19:45:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You continue to dodge my question – do you believe it’s morally okay to confront and yell at women, because of the building they choose to enter, even though they may have been raped and may not be seeking an elective abortion? I’ll answer, even though you didn’t ask me. No. in fact, it’s my view that it’s not morally okay to confront and yell at women even if they are seeking an elective abortion that’s not the result of incest or rape. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/102 "2014-06-26T19:47:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’ll answer, even though you didn’t ask me. > > No. in fact, it’s my view that it’s not morally okay to confront and yell at women even if they are seeking an elective abortion that’s not the result of incest or rape. Do you believe it’s morally wrong to do so (in either scenario)? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/103 "2014-06-26T19:48:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Any given protester”? What do you mean? Do you mean “average guy who spends several hours per day yelling at women who enter women’s clinics”? Do you mean “average guy who has spent one hour, once in his life, yelling at women who enter women’s clinics”? Because one is very likely to have yelled at a rape victim. Well, you raise a good point. Despite being pro-life, I am completely unfamiliar with the staffing and scheduling involved with protest groups that scream at women. I don’t think they are numerous. But I have no actual evidence to back up any impressions I might harbor. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/104 "2014-06-26T19:49:00Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > And I don’t think much of people choosing to have abortions (or of Russian ‘democracy’ activists) so we’re even, I suppose. That’s… interesting. But I think this is going to turn into a hijack. OK, you think liberals don’t like people who go to church. Great. Moving on. > [@](#): > > If not, then why should women who want abortions have the right to do their thing without being annoyed by protesters? Again: they’re not women going for abortions, they’re women going to clinics. Some of them are there for abortions, but they’re not all doing that. I have little hope that you’ll acknowledge that, but it’s an important distinction. And my answer is that going to a clinic is not a political act or an expression of any public position. It’s a trip to a clinic and that’s it. It’s no more inherently political than protesting outside a GP’s office or a radiologist’s. Why should people be allowed to intimidate people who are just going to a doctor? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/105 "2014-06-26T19:49:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you believe it’s morally wrong to do so (in either scenario)? In both scenarios, I believe it’s morally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/106 "2014-06-26T19:50:57Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The concerns here, I think, have less to do with how inherently disorderly, tasteless or irritating the protests are, and more to do with people being really, really invested in being able to have guilt-free and shame-free abortions. What’s awesome is you have no ability to make me feel guilt or shame. Your screaming at me at a clinic might make me feel fear, so I guess you’ve got that going for you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/107 "2014-06-26T19:51:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In both scenarios, I believe it’s morally wrong. Good for you. I hope you’ll join me in considering volunteering as a clinic escort, so that women who choose to enter certain buildings will have people on their side, offering support for their right to enter any building they choose. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/108 "2014-06-26T19:51:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why should people be allowed to intimidate people who are just going to a doctor? For the same reasons that Westboro Baptist couldn’t be successfully sued for emotional distress when they picketed Corporal Matthew A. Snyder’s funeral. That pesky First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/109 "2014-06-26T19:52:36Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Well, it’s the harassment that I object to. > > I’d hate to go to the dentist’s office if I was going to be harassed when I go there. I mean, it’s already SO much fun. > > If the laws are sufficient to prevent harassment, then fine. But I don’t think that they are, or this wouldn’t be an issue in the first place. > > Well put. We see where Hector stands: “Anything is right if it supports my preferences.” > > The two situations are perfectly equivalent. > > I’d be more sympathetic to anti-abortion people if they really showed that they care about embryos, but they don’t. FAR more embryos don’t make it past the first trimester (about one third). If every conception created a human life worthy of the same protection as a baby, why isn’t there any uproar over this terrible loss of human life, which might be preventable? > > But no, crickets. Anti-abortion people are more concerned about the act of abortion than the loss of what they call human life. Because we don’t consider _natural_ deaths to be a big problem in need of a solution. Homicide or suicide are a very different thing than death from natural causes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/110 "2014-06-26T19:55:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Good for you. I hope you’ll join me in considering volunteering as a clinic escort, so that women who choose to enter certain buildings will have people on their side, offering support for their right to enter any building they choose. Nope. Because while I don’t approve of the yelling, neither do I approve of the reasons for many of their visits, and it would be inappropriate and unhelpful for your cause if I were to condition my escorting on women who were present for reasons other than abortion. However, I have been to many abortion clinic “protests,” and am fully prepared to tell anyone on my side who yells, or acts in any way aggressively that he or she should stop. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/111 "2014-06-26T19:56:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nope. Because while I don’t approve of the yelling, neither do I approve of the reasons for many of their visits, and it would be inappropriate and unhelpful for your cause if I were to condition my escorting on women who were present for reasons other than abortion. What if you were to condition your escorting on “women who want to enter that building over there for reasons that are none of your damn business”? Further, would you concede that it is a morally positive thing to do to act as moral and physical support for women who want to enter that building over there for reasons that are none of your damn business? Or is it a morally bad thing to do? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/112 "2014-06-26T19:56:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For the same reasons that Westboro Baptist couldn’t be successfully sued for emotional distress when they picketed Corporal Matthew A. Snyder’s funeral. > > That pesky First Amendment. I’ll let you hash it out with this guy: > [@Bricker](#): > > In 2000, the Court upheld an eight-foot barrier. > > So at a minimum, eight feet is a constitutionally permissible balance between First Amendment rights and maintaining the safety and public order interests of a state. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/113 "2014-06-26T19:59:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For the same reasons that Westboro Baptist couldn’t be successfully sued for emotional distress when they picketed Corporal Matthew A. Snyder’s funeral. > > That pesky First Amendment. I actually do think Westboro Baptist should have been sued- it violates the entire purpose of a funeral to have people protesting it. On top of that, of course, whatever your feelings on the morality of homosexuality, it certainly doesn’t inherently harm anyone else (except arguably the person themselves). The same can’t be said of abortion: those of us on the pro-life side believe it causes lethal harm to a third party. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/114 "2014-06-26T19:59:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So that would be, “No,” you were not aware of this? well, turns out, my mistake. It’s a full 1 percent. The "one-half percent’ figure I was thinking of belongs to the other category of pregnancy which unites strong support of abortion rights, even from those otherwise opposed: incest. > > [Cite (PDF).](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf) Could you explain to me what your point is? I’m honestly not sure why that’s relevant. The percentage of abortions had by the women in my family due to rape is 100%, so why should I be comforted that a whole bunch of women in my wife’s position were likely also screamed at? Because they represent a fraction of a bunch of other people? Honestly, I have no problem with the court’s ruling. I hate that people are assholes and take advantage of our fantastic free speech laws, so why the heck are you defending these idiot protestors by saying “They only yell at a few thousand rape victims. Were you aware of that?” Are you aware of how silly your post sounded? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/115 "2014-06-26T20:00:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s… interesting. But I think this is going to turn into a hijack. OK, you think liberals don’t like people who go to church. Great. Moving on. > > Again: they’re not women going for abortions, they’re women going to clinics. Some of them are there for abortions, but they’re not all doing that. I have little hope that you’ll acknowledge that, but it’s an important distinction. And my answer is that going to a clinic is not a political act or an expression of any public position. It’s a trip to a clinic and that’s it. It’s no more inherently political than protesting outside a GP’s office or a radiologist’s. Why should people be allowed to intimidate people who are just going to a doctor? Why should P\*ssy Riot be able to offend people who are just going to church? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/116 "2014-06-26T20:03:46Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Why should P\*ssy Riot be able to offend people who are just going to church? I get that you don’t think their rights are important. This thread is not about Russia, so let’s not talk about Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/117 "2014-06-26T20:05:35Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Because we don’t consider _natural_ deaths to be a big problem in need of a solution. Homicide or suicide are a very different thing than death from natural causes. I admit that they’re different, but why aren’t you concerned with the natural ones? It’s still a life lost! If it’s the life you’re concerned about, you’d be concerned about the natural causes, too. Or do you think it’s OK for people to die of cancer, and that we shouldn’t do cancer research? Like I said: you’re all up in arms about the abortion, but don’t really care about the lives you claim to be saving. Now, if you say it’s God’s will that the natural terminations happen, well then, you’re entitled to your religion, but your beliefs shouldn’t give you the right to harass people doing perfectly legal things that I do not find shameful or worthy of blame. I’d like to see whether you’d protect the free speech rights of Islamic groups who shouted insults at you whenever you tried to go to church. But you already conceded that it’s not about free speech, since you think Westboro shouldn’t be able to play havoc at funerals. It’s about your religion. Well sorry, your religion doesn’t dictate the law. (Thank God!) ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/118 "2014-06-26T20:05:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I think it’s extremely insulting, as well as profoundly ignorant, to claim that a woman getting an abortion doesn’t truly understand what she’s doing and why, and what the consequences will be for \*everyone \*involved in a difficult, complex life decision. She understands far better than a stranger screaming at her does, at any rate, and certainly better than a religious zealot trying to convert her in those last few feet before the door. > > But, that failing, there’s always the [Dr. Tiller Solution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr_tiller)to saving life, right? I certainly _hope_ they’re ignorant of what it is they’re really doing, because if not, they’re choosing to knowingly take an innocent human life. Which says a lot about their character. I’m charitable enough to assume most of them _don’t_ truly understand what it is they’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/119 "2014-06-26T20:06:21Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The same can’t be said of abortion: those of us on the pro-life side believe it causes lethal harm to a third party. You do seem to imply that there are those who disagree that a fetus is a person, at least. Do you go far enough to acknowledge that their views can be as thoughtful and as morally-based as your own? ETA: Never mind, I just saw your last post, and the answer is No. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698/120 "2014-06-26T20:06:46Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Could you explain to me what your point is? I’m honestly not sure why that’s relevant. > > The percentage of abortions had by the women in my family due to rape is 100%, so why should I be comforted that a whole bunch of women in my wife’s position were likely also screamed at? Because they represent a fraction of a bunch of other people? > > Honestly, I have no problem with the court’s ruling. I hate that people are assholes and take advantage of our fantastic free speech laws, so why the heck are you defending these idiot protestors by saying “They only yell at a few thousand rape victims. Were you aware of that?” Are you aware of how silly your post sounded? No. I was rebutting the implication in **iiandyiii** ’s post that seemed to suggest the phenomenon was far more common. And again, “a few thousand” is not a measure of how common the phenomenon is. 1% of all abortions are for rape-related reasons. That is, I think you’ll agree, _uncommon_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-buffer-zones-in-massachusetts-not-legal-says-unanimous-scotus/691698.md?page=7)