# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![maladroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/181 "2011-05-06T20:42:12Z")
I draw the line at breathing. If one has never drawn breath one is not a living human being, and turns out, there’s some support for my position in the bible (genesis 2:7), even though that’s not why I think the line belongs there. And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. The order is significant - Form, breath, living soul tadaa ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/182 "2011-05-06T20:42:31Z")
> [@Little\_Bird](#): > > If that person wants to get rid of that parasite, that’s her decision and I would walk her to the clinic myself. It bothers me that you use the word “parasite” instead of “fetus”, but I suspect that’s my problem, not yours. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If you don’t like the abortion laws, you should work to make Roe v. Wade overturned. You should NOT harass woman who are going into a medical clinic. I believe Pro-life protestors do so mainly because it’s easier to bully the women and girls going to a clinic than it is to change the law. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I myself try to refer to “pro-life” people as “pro-life” and “pro-choice” people as “pro-choice”. If you don’t think “pro-abortion” or “anti-choice” are pejorative phrases, you are ignorant of the fact that yes, they are. I consider the subject of abortion to be a matter of conscience which should be dealt with primarily by the people directly involved. Strangers standing outside a clinic holding up images of carnage are doing nothing useful in my opinion. You want to offer an alternative? There are better, more effective ways to promote that agenda that do not involve intimidation, condemnation and threats of violence. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/183 "2011-05-06T20:42:34Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > So, I’ve discussed my “line”. Where is your line? Can you justify it? That’s perfectly fine for a personal decision. Justification is necessary when defining and deciding the laws of the land. I think the proper response is to do what we can to offer alternatives to anyone considering abortion and try to teach a respect for life, even potential life. My personal feelings is that those who actively oppose abortion rights should be involved in caring for unwed mothers and children, as well as contraception. I’m a little confused why there are so many unwanted pregnancies when contraception seems to be available. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/184 "2011-05-06T20:43:33Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Bolding added for emphasis. I can do that, right? > > Unless that ‘ass’ referrred to a donkey, ‘classy lady’ whatever is going to shake her finger at you. I hope she does not make me write 50 lines of “I have a potty mouth and want to kill baybees”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/185 "2011-05-06T20:49:40Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > My personal feelings is that those who actively oppose abortion rights should be involved in caring for unwed mothers and children, as well as contraception. I’m a little confused why there are so many unwanted pregnancies when contraception seems to be available. Three words: “abstinence only education.” ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/186 "2011-05-06T20:51:07Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Saying one wants them to be ‘rare’ is accepting the idea that abortion is bad. I don’t think it is. For a desperate woman they’re _great_, a lifesaving, _legal_ medical procedure. So what I think we should say that abortions should be safe, legal, and nobody else’s goddamned business. The way these people go around sticking their dirty little minds up womens’ vaginas, why didn’t they just become gynecologists? I think you’re reading too much into it. “Rare” in the sense of “the decision doesn’t have to be made, because birth control is commonplace and easy to use, and comprehensive factual sex education is the order of the day.” I think abortion is enough of a morally grey area that I’d prefer to minimize it, even if I simultaneously think that there’s a perfectly unimpeachable legal right for women to have all the abortions they want. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/187 "2011-05-06T20:53:06Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > … the horrible mistake we’ve made in warping the Constitution the way we’ve done (penumbra!?), … Umm, you do know the case that uses the phrase “penumbras” and “emanations” ain’t _Roe_, right? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/188 "2011-05-06T20:54:49Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Hey Abortion-clinic picketers, we get it that you don’t approve of abortions, but unfortunately for you it is perfectly legal for women to seek a termination. Hanging around the entrances to the medical clinics is a pretty threatening AND piss-poor way of getting your righteous message across. > > But **filming** people who are attending those clinics? And then claiming that you are doing it for _your_ protection? > [Go The Fuck Away](http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/antiabortionists-secretly-film-clinic/2155201.aspx) > > :mad: Hey **kambuckta** , we get it that you don’t approve of abortion clinic picketers, but unfortunately for you it is perfectly legal for people to protest peacefully against abortion. Now, as to the filming – what use are they making of the film? Keeping it to defend themselves against false accusations of illegal behavior? Good! Building a facial recognition database of abortion-minded women? Bad! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/189 "2011-05-06T20:56:29Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I think you’re reading too much into it. “Rare” in the sense of “the decision doesn’t have to be made, because birth control is commonplace and easy to use, and comprehensive factual sex education is the order of the day.” > > I think abortion is enough of a morally grey area that I’d prefer to minimize it, even if I simultaneously think that there’s a perfectly unimpeachable legal right for women to have all the abortions they want. Another reason to want them to be rare is that they are a medical procedure that carries with it some risk and certain discomfort. If risk and discomfort can be minimized at the cost of increased access to birth control and education, I think that’s a good thing in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/190 "2011-05-06T20:57:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hey **kambuckta** , we get it that you don’t approve of abortion clinic picketers, but unfortunately for you it is perfectly legal for people to protest peacefully against abortion. > > Now, as to the filming – what use are they making of the film? Keeping it to defend themselves against false accusations of illegal behavior? Good! Building a facial recognition database of abortion-minded women? Bad! Intimidation tactics? Gray? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/191 "2011-05-06T20:58:23Z")
> [@margin](#): > > The anti-choicers have been bombing, harassing, terrorizing, stalking, and _murdering_ abortion doctors for decades now. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If you don’t like the abortion laws, you should work to make Roe v. Wade overturned. You should NOT harass woman who are going into a medical clinic. > [@SSgtBaloo](#): > > I believe Pro-life protestors do so mainly because it’s easier to bully the women and girls going to a clinic than it is to change the law. > … > Strangers standing outside a clinic holding up images of carnage are doing nothing useful in my opinion. You want to offer an alternative? There are better, more effective ways to promote that agenda that do not involve intimidation, condemnation and threats of violence. I am firmly pro-choice, but in fairness and honesty I have to say that a substantial number of those who demonstrate at clinics do not intend intimidation or threat. They are witnessing, and they are demonstrating. They are not assassins or bombers or even bullies. This is their right, and there is nothing wrong with it except (in my view) the content of the message itself. Public demonstration, of course, can be an important component of working to influence public opinion and the law. Feature, not a bug. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/192 "2011-05-06T21:00:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hey **kambuckta** , we get it that you don’t approve of abortion clinic picketers, but unfortunately for you it is perfectly legal for people to protest peacefully against abortion. I would argue that the majority of these protests (if not the majority of protesters–it’s always an asshole subset who get in people’s faces), in my personal experience, cross the line from “peaceful” and into “harassment”–doubly so because the majority of people visiting women’s health clinics are not receiving abortion services but are assumed to be. > [@](#): > > Now, as to the filming – what use are they making of the film? Keeping it to defend themselves against false accusations of illegal behavior? Good! Building a facial recognition database of abortion-minded women? Bad! There’s admittedly a problem here, and one that cuts to the heart of legal restrictions on recording in public spaces without consent. That is, that videotape by itself is capable of being used for both purposes. I don’t personally think that it should be illegal to record in a public space, granted. Hence my preferred solution above (a few large clinic escorts peacefully standing in a public space in such a way that they block the camera’s view of persons entering the clinic). ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/193 "2011-05-06T21:10:12Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Of course having morals is not wrong. > > However, when you make unwarranted assumptions about a couple entering a PP clinic, and think that a random couple you saw consisted of "a gentleman averse to the prospect of child support, who was hurrying his visibly-disconcerted “friend” into the building. " > > You are showing a shocking lack of a moral compass yourself. > > I’d say you were quite fortunate that all you got was a grimace. If it had been me, who was escorting my wife into the PP clinic for her appointment to get a pap smear because we were afraid that she had cervical cancer? I would have given you a bit more than a grimace; you would have been informed that you are a sanctimonious, holier than thou ass who knows nothing about our lives, or what is actually going on in a PP clinic. (1) For folks so concerned about making assumptions, you folks certainly make quite a few about pro-lifers. Read through the thread, I can’t be bothered to multi-quote. (2) I’m so sorry I ever mentioned these people. Let me explain for the last time: (a) One time while protesting outside a PP, I saw a young man and a young woman, approximately the same age. (b) The young man was visibly urging the young woman into the clinic, holding her by the arm. They were not walking at an even pace. (c) The young woman proceeded, apprehensively, towards the PP, visibly concerned and with an expression that I would describe as “reluctant”. (d) In the within thread, somebody mentioned a boyfriend who didn’t want to pay child support encouraging the mother to abort. (e) The previous scene came to mind. (f) I made the grave error of mentioning this fact in my post. It is very possible that she was going to PP to get a pap smear or whatever, and the man was her brother (I did not see a wedding ring), and she was apprehensive about getting the test done. I doubt this, especially since there are plenty of free clinics in Pittsburgh, where innocent blood is not spilt, but it doesn’t matter. Both times I protested PP, our group was quite civil, and we did not directly address anybody entering or exiting the building. If engaged in conversation, we would speak, but otherwise, we would pray, hand out leaflets, and carry signs. It is not my wont to prejudge people. (3) It was the epitome of hypocrisy and bad faith for you folks to villify, abuse, and torment classylady the way you folks did. It was like watching a nature show on the Savannah and seeing the lions rush the injured antelope. One does have to have a thicker skin in “The Pit”, but to deliberately take advantage of one with a more sensitive nature is really sad, guys. I might go so far as to say that a callous disregard for humanity is a common element in the worldview that permits both abortion and incivility to one’s fellow man. ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/194 "2011-05-06T21:11:16Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Umm, you do know the case that uses the phrase “penumbras” and “emanations” ain’t _Roe_, right? > > CMC fnord! Was it Casey? I dunno, I lump them all together, as they’re usually cited together anyway. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/195 "2011-05-06T21:21:50Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I think you’re reading too much into it. “Rare” in the sense of “the decision doesn’t have to be made, because birth control is commonplace and easy to use, and comprehensive factual sex education is the order of the day.” > > I think abortion is enough of a morally grey area that I’d prefer to minimize it, even if I simultaneously think that there’s a perfectly unimpeachable legal right for women to have all the abortions they want. I don’t think it’s gray at all. It’s nobody’s goddamned business. Are appendectomies a gray area? If birth control is common and easy to get—whcih, for a lot of women, it’s simply not, thank to the same people who claim they’re against abortion—then say so. I’m not adopting their viewpoint. I think abortion is great. It saves womens’ lives, it minimizes the after effects of rape, it allows women to keep on living their lives. And to whoever said, 'What are anti choicers going to do with the footage?" well, Wiki has a pretty extensive list of the way people like Scott Roeder and other anti-choicers use pictures to print fliers to call clinic workers murderers and stuff like that. Harassment and stalking. And then there’s the—what is it now? seven or eight?—murders of abortion providers? That doesn’t include death threats, bomb threats, and so on. The anti-choice movement is not composed of fluffy bunnies, no what its apologists whine. > [@](#): > > I am firmly pro-choice, but in fairness and honesty I have to say that a substantial number of those who demonstrate at clinics do not intend intimidation or threat. They are witnessing, and they are demonstrating. They are not assassins or bombers or even bullies. This is their right, and there is nothing wrong with it except (in my view) the content of the message itself. Yeah, they’re ‘witnessing’ alright. Except they don’t stop when they’re asked to. They don’t have any business protesting somebody else’s surgery. The fact is, this is a movement that makes its raison d’etre the reduction of women to incubators. I don’t give a shit about how nicey nice some members are. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/196 "2011-05-06T21:29:15Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > Was it Casey? I dunno, I lump them all together, as they’re usually cited together anyway. [Griswold v. Connecticut](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griswold_v._Connecticut). A birth control case, not an abortion case. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/197 "2011-05-06T21:29:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Three words: “abstinence only education.” right. I’m more in favor of teaching kids how to have respect for themselves and for others. Teaching them choices have consequences that have to be considered, and then providing them contraceptives, if and when they decide to become sexually active. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/198 "2011-05-06T21:30:10Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > (c) The young woman proceeded, apprehensively, towards the PP, visibly concerned and with an expression that I would describe as “reluctant”. With anti-abortion scum around, of course she was apprehensive. Like a black man walking past a KKK rally. > [@Beniamino](#): > > (3) It was the epitome of hypocrisy and bad faith for you folks to villify, abuse, and torment classylady the way you folks did. It was like watching a nature show on the Savannah and seeing the lions rush the injured antelope. One does have to have a thicker skin in “The Pit”, but to deliberately take advantage of one with a more sensitive nature is really sad, guys. Oh, please. She was just trying to divert attention from the worthlessness and evil of her own beliefs. Whining about “language” while throwing out her own insults. > [@Beniamino](#): > > I might go so far as to say that a callous disregard for humanity is a common element in the worldview that permits both abortion and incivility to one’s fellow man. Now _there’s_ an example of Freudian projection for you. Someone who wants to treat half the human race as cattle complaining about other people having a “callous disregard for humanity”. ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/199 "2011-05-06T21:36:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > With anti-abortion scum around, of course she was apprehensive. Like a black man walking past a KKK rally. > > Oh, please. She was just trying to divert attention from the worthlessness and evil of her own beliefs. Whining about “language” while throwing out her own insults. > > Now _there’s_ an example of Freudian projection for you. Someone who wants to treat half the human race as cattle complaining about other people having a “callous disregard for humanity”. Do you need a hug? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/200 "2011-05-06T21:37:23Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > Do you need a hug? Hey! I thought we already established that was the third worst thing in the world! Might as well have threatened to adopt him… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=11)