# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 120
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2381 "2011-05-25T22:56:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And with every post you write, you remind us of what adolescence was like. Every post you make Every claim you fake Every ball you break Every post you make I’ll be watching you Oh can’t you see You will never be How my poor brain aches With every post you make Inspired by Sting and your stupidity ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2382 "2011-05-25T22:57:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > \*\*But I do agree that it’s odd to try to define “human” to exclude a fetus, at least with any sound biological or scientific reasoning. \*\* Someone pinch me! PINCH ME!!! ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2383 "2011-05-25T23:00:03Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Sorry I’m confused. Please be more specific. Which question? One you asked after I made the statement that you believed abortion is murder? Or before? If it was after, I just want to clear up that I’m starting from an accurate position. The question I asked first, and am still waiting for an answer to: [QUOTE=Me] Do you believe everyone is entitled to their own beliefs regarding personhood? [/quote] > [@irishgirl](#): > > 1. **OMGABC** - “medical training” is not a superpower. One does not have the knowledge and skills to perform a safe surgical abortion simply by graduating from medical school. The necessary skills to perform all medical and surgical procedures aren’t handed out telepathically with the MDs.This is why gynaecologists don’t do facial botox, orthopaedic surgeons don’t insert IUDs and dermatologists don’t inject frozen shoulders. Why would an orthopaedic surgeon be performing an abortion? > [@classyladyhp](#): > > Someone pinch me! PINCH ME!!! I know. Someone needs to tell this to curlcoat, or Zeriel or cosmosdan. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2384 "2011-05-25T23:00:53Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > No, you said “fault”. I am \*asking \*you if you think that children are a punishment for women who need to be blamed for getting pregnant? Why must we find fault with regard to pregnancy? > > No. They would definitely have it, although they may not be symptomatic. You still haven’t answered the question. Why should a parent be legally exempt from donating his/her body to preserve the life of a born child but not legally exempt from donating her body to preserve the life of an unborn child? You are attempting to put words in my mouth. Either that or I need to ship you some hooked on phonics. Women who abort their babies because the baby is an inconvenience view children as a punishment. They are not donating their body to preserve the life of the unborn. It is her actions that put the baby there. If there was an artifical womb machine that could be used to grow the baby that would be great. Since there is no artificial womb machine the fetus needs the mother to survive. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2385 "2011-05-25T23:03:00Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Why would an orthopaedic surgeon be performing an abortion? Well can’t you figure that out? She thinks we think that orthopaedic surgeons insert IUD’s and that dermatologists perform c-sections and that proctologists prescribe accutane and that dentists perform gastric bypass surgery:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2386 "2011-05-25T23:04:09Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Uh-huh… So now you’re assuming that that they were on some kind of anti-women trend? In 1859? The whole _world_ was on an anti-woman trend, and had been for quite some time. Arguably it didn’t start to become pro-women until the various suffrage movements began gathering momentum. > [@](#): > > Never mind the fact this is based on the notion that abortion views differ by gender. What about the early feminists (not the kind that run around today) who were staunch abortion opponents and were instrumental in helping make abortion illegal? That doesn’t surprise me at all - women are great at oppressing other women. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2387 "2011-05-25T23:04:27Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I know. Someone needs to tell this to curlcoat, or Zeriel or cosmosdan. Oh but curlcoat is adamant that the fetus is not a human:p Someone needs to tell him/her about the birds and the bees. A man and a woman can’t created anything but a human. Last time I checked anyways. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2388 "2011-05-25T23:05:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > In 1859? The whole _world_ was on an anti-woman trend, and had been for quite some time. Arguably it didn’t start to become pro-women until the various suffrage movements began gathering momentum. > > That doesn’t surprise me at all - women are great at oppressing other women. No people are great at oppressing each other. Men are great at oppressing women in the Islamic world as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2389 "2011-05-25T23:07:55Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I know. Someone needs to tell this to curlcoat, or Zeriel or cosmosdan. Well, perhaps instead of saying “pro-choices say this” and “pro-choicers say that”, you’ll add the slight modifier and use “_some_ pro-choicers say this…” and “_some_ pro-choicers say that…” now that you recognize some minor variation in opinion. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2390 "2011-05-25T23:08:40Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > There is nothing absurd about it. You cannot find me any other situation in law, in ANY circumstances, where a person can be compelled to provide their organs or lifeblood to another for any reason. > > Who’s got the ridiculous hypotheticals now, Mr. You’re Making Conscious Decisions in the Middle of Surgery? > > In any case, those doctors would be crushed in a malpractice suit, period. We can however restrain someone from taking their own life or another’s. Your position that surgery is only possible under a general anesthetic is noted. > [@](#): > > Nice dodge. Are you trying to steal the King Bonehead crown from OMG? Because let me tell you you’ve got a long way to go. Ah namecalling. How disappointing. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2391 "2011-05-25T23:17:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, perhaps instead of saying “pro-choices say this” and “pro-choicers say that”, you’ll add the slight modifier and use “_some_ pro-choicers say this…” and “_some_ pro-choicers say that…” now that you recognize some minor variation in opinion. And that has been an important point all along. The prochoice movement is built on the fact that each person can and often does reach their own conclusions. I’m not sure why anyone would be surprised that an individual person has independent ideas on this. It’s not some big gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2392 "2011-05-25T23:19:01Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Nitpick; It technically is a fact and a relevant one. There are some interesting pages about how society has dealt with the issue of fetal rights, Fetal rights don’t have anything to do with whether or not a fetus is human. Animals have rights, but they aren’t humans (usually). > [@](#): > > A zygote or an embryo are fully human with unique DNA even before it’s designated a fetus. Same with parasitic twins and co-joined twins, yet surgery is usually done at the expense of one to give the other a much better life. I don’t think anyone has designated a parasitic twin, or an incomplete co-joined one human. > [@](#): > > They are unarguably stages of human development just as infant and adult are. That’s not in question. No, it’s not in question. However, I place more emphasis on the word _development_ - just as an infant isn’t an adult but will develop into one, so a fetus is not yet a human. > [@](#): > > You might argue that a fetus is not yet a person, IYO, but arguing that it’s not a human is factually incorrect. What is the difference between a person and a human? > [@classyladyhp](#): > > No. The parents had no intent of passing on their genetic condition to the fetus. It is not their fault that the fetus was born with this condition. We can’t control which chromosomes are going to come together to create the fetus. We can’t choose the healthy chromosomes. Well, actually, we can but humans don’t tend to be unselfish enough to do so. Anyway, take it out of the realm of genetics - if a woman drinks heavily during every pregnancy and has produced three children all with FAS, should she be required to risk or give her life so one of these FAS children of her’s could live? > [@classyladyhp](#): > > Then you’re crazier than I thought you were. A 24 week premie is not a human then. You know some 24 week fetuses can’t breathe on their own. No, having never been pregnant and never knowing anyone with a seriously premature baby, I did not know that. > [@](#): > > Then what the fuck is it. You’re retarded. What else can a fetus created by 2 humans be other than a human. ANSWER THAT. You just said it - it’s a fetus. Also, if you don’t start quoting correctly, I won’t be fixing your posts so they can be answered. If you do this again, all you will be proving is that you want to pretend you are right rather than actually being right. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > So an unborn human baby, of which a fetus is (hey, that’s not my definition. It came from Oxford dictionaries), isn’t a human? Then wouldn’t that make it a non-human baby? Is the Oxford dictionary wrong then? An unborn baby is not yet a human, it is either an unborn baby or a fetus, depending on state of gestation and whatever personal emotions the speaker has. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2393 "2011-05-25T23:39:17Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > We can however restrain someone from taking their own life or another’s. Certainly, but only under very specific circumstances do we require people to preserve the life of another. Let’s be clear–in my analogy, you can punish me for the proximate cause of your life being in danger (me stabbing you), but you can’t punish me by making me support your life with my own. Right? > [@](#): > > Your position that surgery is only possible under a general anesthetic is noted. For organ transplant surgery? Uh, yes. > [@](#): > > Ah namecalling. How disappointing. We’re in the pit, ignatz. Go open a Great Debates thread. Christ on a pogo stick, I laid out a supportable pro-life set of axioms already, do you REALLY think the fact I called you a bonehead matters? Oh yeah, I forgot in my last post too–you don’t think bodily autonomy is really a valid thing, because no rights are absolute. Since “all rights” includes the fetus’ right to life, that means we have to balance the two, or else the fetus’ right to life in absolute, yes? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2394 "2011-05-26T00:18:42Z")
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**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2395 "2011-05-26T00:24:14Z")
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**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2396 "2011-05-26T00:27:57Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > You are attempting to put words in my mouth. Either that or I need to ship you some hooked on phonics. Women who abort their babies because the baby is an inconvenience view children as a punishment. Then explain to me why \*you \*continue to use the word ‘fault’ with regard to assuring that women are not to abort their pregnancies. On what basis do women with unwanted pregnancies view children as punishment? What I refer to as punishment is you insisting that an unwanted pregnancy be continued solely because it’s the woman’s “fault” for getting pregnant. It is you who is placing blame and wielding the pregnancy as her punishment. > [@](#): > > They are not donating their body to preserve the life of the unborn. It is her actions that put the baby there. Those two sentences do not go together. You are right, though, donation implies that it’s voluntary. What you are talking about is forcibly turning her into an nothing more than an unwilling incubator. What part of sexual intercourse does not equate intentional pregnancy do you not understand? > [@](#): > > If there was an artifical womb machine that could be used to grow the baby that would be great. Since there is no artificial womb machine the fetus needs the mother to survive. Once again, the law should not compel her to provide that sustenance just as it does not compel her to provide her organs (or blood even) to sustain her born child. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2397 "2011-05-26T00:30:21Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > What part of sexual intercourse does not equate intentional pregnancy do you not understand? Probably the part where people have sex without trying to get pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2398 "2011-05-26T00:32:07Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Certainly, but only under very specific circumstances do we require people to preserve the life of another. Let’s be clear–in my analogy, you can punish me for the proximate cause of your life being in danger (me stabbing you), but you can’t punish me by making me support your life with my own. Right? Pregnancy is a special case. It’s a stretch to try to construct analogous cases as we’ve both demonstrated. Lets say you’re a crazy mad scientist and your idea of the ultimate punishment is making me physically dependent on you. You’ve confirmed that by some stroke of Fate, we’re perfectly blood compatible. You cut out my heart and hook us up. The police enter (surprising you because you were sure that you wouldn’t be caught - mad after all 🙂 ) and take us into custody and you demand I be disconnected. Not only am I pretty sure that nobody is going to assist in this process, but I suspect you will be restrained and used as my life support until the situation can be resolved. > [@](#): > > Oh yeah, I forgot in my last post too–you don’t think bodily autonomy is really a valid thing, because no rights are absolute. Since “all rights” includes the fetus’ right to life, that means we have to balance the two, or else the fetus’ right to life in absolute, yes? Since I think that’s true for all situations in which the rights of persons conflict, I would agree. For example, I dislike the idea of late term abortions very much, but in the case of life or long tern health threat of the mother, I have far less problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2399 "2011-05-26T00:36:38Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > What part of sexual intercourse does not equate intentional pregnancy do you not understand? If I hold a revolver with a million chambers to someone’s head and pull the trigger, do I avoid the consequences if they get “lucky”? I mean, I had no intent to kill them and the odds were very much against the negative outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2400 "2011-05-26T00:37:57Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > The question I asked first, and am still waiting for an answer to: > > [QUOTE=Me] > Do you believe everyone is entitled to their own beliefs regarding personhood? [/QUOTE] Okay, that question. But right before you asked that question, you indicated that I misunderstood you, so I wanted to clear that up. See? [QUOTE=Omg a Black Conservative] [QUOTE=Brown Eyed Girl] You haven’t demonstrated that and I don’t see it. If I understand you correctly, you believe abortion is murder. I don’t agree with you. You may not want to have an abortion. I’m okay with that. As a pro-choicer, I can respect your right to carry a pregnancy to term. Can you respect my right to not carry a pregnancy to term? I didn’t think so. [/QUOTE] No, that’s not what I said. Let me try this a different way. Do you believe everyone is entitled to their own beliefs regarding personhood? [/QUOTE] I’m addressing the statement that preceded your question. See, I just want to know what I said wrong. What was that? Once we get that cleared up, I’ll be happy to move on to your next question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=119) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=121)