# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 122
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2421 "2011-05-26T04:57:18Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > The thing is, you can argue the scientific FACT either way. A fetus has the DNA of a human and has the potential to grow into a human. OTOH, I don’t think you are going to find too many people, and even scientists, who are going to call a five or six week old fetus a human. At 5 or 6 weeks it’s not a fetus yet. I actual think most biologists would call a fetus a human but I haven’t found any data either way. > [@](#): > > For me, it hinges on that word potential and it’s close cousin, develop. If the fetus is going to develop _into_ a baby, then it isn’t a baby now, is it? Sure it’s a human in a certain stage of development , and until it’s born and separated from the mother, potential is an appropriate term. It’s odd. Lynn provided a picture that showed, a chicken egg is not a chicken, and acorn is not a tree, and a zygote is not a person. Still, considering that zygote, the question “is it human?” seems to be a matter of species and DNA so the answer is clearly Yes! Is it A human, is trickier. It’s DNA is unique so on the one hand it is, but if the question is more of a philosophical one , then it’s not clear. It has no brain or consciousness in those first few weeks. Do we consider people in comas to be human? Brain dead and kept on a ventilator, are they human? I don’t think any of us get to say with any certainty that it is or isn’t A human, from a philosophical sense. We do get to say in a legal sense. No it’s not a person or citizen due equal protection of the law. But from a strictly scientific sense it is fully and uniquely human, even at the zygote stage. > [@](#): > > A newborn is a human - it is no longer living in a parasitical manner and it is just one body, not two (usually). I wouldn’t have a problem with calling it a human fetus, but a real live honest to garsh human? No - DNA matches and potential to become something just don’t mean that it is that something. So it’s the independent thing? Inside the mother connected by the umbilical, not a human, but an hour later, when the umbilical is cut, it’s a human? Is that it. It would be hard to convince a lot of people of that. What if the mother is clinically dead with the fetus still inside her, fully developed? Is it a baby then? It is tricky and a difficult hair to split. I’m not sure there is a definition of human other than the biological one. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2422 "2011-05-26T05:02:43Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > We face the question of how to handle them and the question of women’s right to choose concerning her own body, vs questionable fetal rights and how that affects society as a whole. That’s right, we do. And IMO, the answer is that if you’re active sexually, you go see a doctor or a family planning specialist and get educated on the consequences of that activity. If we’re letting adult humans get to the age of consent without understanding that sometimes “when a man and women love each other very much” there can be consequences, we need to consider upping the ante on Sex Ed. I think in general our (US) society pretty much has made it clear that as the fetus develops, it gets increasing consideration in the tug of war of rights between it and the mother. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2423 "2011-05-26T05:09:24Z")
> [@Little\_Bird](#): > > Except for our ancient and cuddly cousins the [Monotremes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotreme)! They lay eggs like a reptile, fascinating! You must be echidna. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2424 "2011-05-26T05:20:43Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > At 5 or 6 weeks it’s not a fetus yet. I actual think most biologists would call a fetus a human but I haven’t found any data either way. I’m not sure it’s worth looking. Abortion laws are made by the common people, not scientists so it would be the opinion of the common person that would be more important. I wonder what he would decide if asked if a fetus should have all human rights? > [@](#): > > It’s odd. Lynn provided a picture that showed, a chicken egg is not a chicken, and acorn is not a tree, and a zygote is not a person. Do you remember what post that was? I missed it, not that I know how I could possibly miss one post in all of this…:dubious: > [@](#): > > Is it A human, is trickier. It’s DNA is unique so on the one hand it is, but if the question is more of a philosophical one , then it’s not clear. It has no brain or consciousness in those first few weeks. Do we consider people in comas to be human? Brain dead and kept on a ventilator, are they human? > I don’t think any of us get to say with any certainty that it is or isn’t A human, from a philosophical sense. We do get to say in a legal sense. No it’s not a person or citizen due equal protection of the law. But from a strictly scientific sense it is fully and uniquely human, even at the zygote stage. How can you say that when you said above you couldn’t find any cites? > [@](#): > > So it’s the independent thing? Inside the mother connected by the umbilical, not a human, but an hour later, when the umbilical is cut, it’s a human? Is that it. It would be hard to convince a lot of people of that. I wouldn’t know about convincing people - I’m not trying to do that. I’m simply saying that in the context of abortion, it isn’t a human until it is on it’s own. Until then, it’s still a zygote/fetus/parasite/unborn baby - whatever you want to call it, but it doesn’t have human rights. > [@](#): > > What if the mother is clinically dead with the fetus still inside her, fully developed? Is it a baby then? Not until they get it out. > [@](#): > > It is tricky and a difficult hair to split. I’m not sure there is a definition of human other than the biological one. There must be a legal definition? ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2425 "2011-05-26T05:43:09Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > If I hold a revolver with a million chambers to someone’s head and pull the trigger, do I avoid the consequences if they get “lucky”? I mean, I had no intent to kill them and the odds were very much against the negative outcome. Let’s work with this analogy for a minute. If the other person _agreed_ to play Russian Roulette and they get shot in the temple, would you deny them life-saving surgery? Would you deny counselling for the accidental shooter? I mean, they agreed to play, they knew the potential consequences, so why bother trying to save them in the one in a million chance that they get shot? Bitch should have kept her legs together - uh, I mean, ducked. (And for the good folks who are thinking, “But pregnancy is a different situation! Babies, new life, miracle of childbirth, et cetera!” maybe you should stop using analogies to make a point if you perceive pregnancy to be a unique situation. A unique situation won’t fit into any analogies - it’s like a shark.) ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2426 "2011-05-26T06:03:00Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Not only am I pretty sure that nobody is going to assist in this process, but I suspect you will be restrained and used as my life support until the situation can be resolved. I would find that immoral, personally. > [@AlienVessels](#): > > If I hold a revolver with a million chambers to someone’s head and pull the trigger, do I avoid the consequences if they get “lucky”? I mean, I had no intent to kill them and the odds were very much against the negative outcome. The difference between your analogy and sex/pregnancy is that sexual activity has a purpose other than “nothing, or killing that guy”. That is, a situation with 0 positive outcomes, 999,999 neutral ones, and 1 negative one is MUCH different from any sane value analysis point of view than a situation with 999,999 positive outcomes, 0 neutral, and 1 negative one. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2427 "2011-05-26T06:27:09Z")
I will try to be clear. **OMGABC** said that he wasn’t concerned that making abortion illegal would lead to women dying, because technology and medical knowledge was such that anyone with medical training could now learn to perform an abortion without trainining. I can’t find that particular post to quote, so I apologise if that isn’t what you meant. If abortions were made illegal doctors who never would have performed abortions while it WAS legal may well decide to perform abortions. Illegal, unsafe abortions they haven’t been trained to do. The analogy of a specialist doing a procedure outside their area of expertise was thus entirely apt. **CLHP** You’re of course able and welcome to post wherever you would like. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2428 "2011-05-26T06:42:43Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > Let’s work with this analogy for a minute. > > If the other person _agreed_ to play Russian Roulette and they get shot in the temple, would you deny them life-saving surgery? Would you deny counselling for the accidental shooter? I mean, they agreed to play, they knew the potential consequences, so why bother trying to save them in the one in a million chance that they get shot? Bitch should have kept her legs together - uh, I mean, ducked. In this case the fetus is the target and it didn’t agree, and the surgery in question is life-ending. And no, I’ve posted several times in this thread that I support as many family planning and health care services for a pregnant woman as is practical to deliver. > [@](#): > > (And for the good folks who are thinking, “But pregnancy is a different situation! Babies, new life, miracle of childbirth, et cetera!” maybe you should stop using analogies to make a point if you perceive pregnancy to be a unique situation. A unique situation won’t fit into any analogies - it’s like a shark.) There can be analogous aspects of the situation. Or the analogy may at least demonstrate WHY the speaker thinks the situations are similar in some way. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2429 "2011-05-26T06:46:32Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Please rephrase. So seriously, what was the point of asking me to rephrase, as I did four posts later, if you just planned to ignore it? ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2430 "2011-05-26T06:48:19Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > The difference between your analogy and sex/pregnancy is that sexual activity has a purpose other than “nothing, or killing that guy”. That is, a situation with 0 positive outcomes, 999,999 neutral ones, and 1 negative one is MUCH different from any sane value analysis point of view than a situation with 999,999 positive outcomes, 0 neutral, and 1 negative one. I agree. But you’re assuming that the one pulling the trigger isn’t having fun on the “misses”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2431 "2011-05-26T06:57:03Z")
Heck, I remain curious what ban-proponents would consider an appropriate punishment for a woman who has undergone an illegal abortion, and an appropriate restraint for a woman who announces her determined intent to see an illegal abortion. I figure it’s not enough to say “I’d give her counseling” as though she was mentally ill, because this suggests implausibly that a significant portion of the female population was mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2432 "2011-05-26T06:58:29Z")
> [@villa](#): > > So seriously, what was the point of asking me to rephrase, as I did four posts later, if you just planned to ignore it? [She’s an asshole](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs), (asshole!) eool eool! ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2433 "2011-05-26T07:46:16Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > I will try to be clear. > > **OMGABC** said that he wasn’t concerned that making abortion illegal would lead to women dying, because technology and medical knowledge was such that anyone with medical training could now learn to perform an abortion without trainining. Fortunately, House Republicans know better here. Today, they passed a bill that will deny federal funding to any medical training program that trains physicians in how to perform an abortion. So, since almost all medical training programs receive federal funding (though not all include abortion training) this means that the Republicans are trying to cut abortion off at the head; if doctors can’t be trained, then they can’t perform the procedure. A procedure that 1 in 3 American women will have performed in their lifetimes. There is, of course, training to be had outside of the medical school setting, but cutting off this training ignores the fact that abortions aren’t always performed electively. Some women will need them in order to live. This is a political position that states quite clearly that the lives of those women do not matter. [A friend of mine wrote this a couple of days ago, about what happens to women, wives, mothers, when politics and personal belief are placed above women’s lives and wellbeing](http://karnythia.tumblr.com/post/5805729874/abortion-saved-my-life). This thread has been 2,430+ posts of platitudes and namecalling and axioms and arguments that fall apart when the slightest pressure is brought to bear. We’re so far afield from where we began, going around and around in the same circles that what we’re forgetting is, at the heart of every abortion decision, is one person, faced with a circumstance in which the entirety of the rest of her life will be changed, no matter what she does. It strikes me as frankly rather terrifying that there are so many who think that they can say, unreservedly, that they know better than every single one of those women what they should – nay, not just should, _ **must** _ – do. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2434 "2011-05-26T08:11:54Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > In this case the fetus is the target and it didn’t agree, and the surgery in question is life-ending. And no, I’ve posted several times in this thread that I support as many family planning and health care services for a pregnant woman as is practical to deliver. I was seeing it as the target is the saucy lady friend and the hapless gunslinger is the hapless gunslinger (euphemism version). All they want to do is have a bit of slightly risky fun, and whoops! the worst case scenario happens. Are they not allowed to medical care because they were engaging in risky behaviour? ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2435 "2011-05-26T08:38:18Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > It strikes me as frankly rather terrifying that there are so many who think that they can say, unreservedly, that they know better than every single one of those women what they should – nay, not just should, _ **must** _ – do. This. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2436 "2011-05-26T08:50:00Z")
Tony Stark knew it was risky to go to the Middle East, but he went anyway, because he thought that the gain was worth the risk. He took precautions, by riding with soldiers in a Humvee and wearing body armour, but sometimes all you can do just isn’t enough, and he wound up in a cave with shrapnel in his chest. He could have survived if he left it there, but not for much longer, and it would have dramatically impacted on his way of life either way. Was Yinsen wrong in helping Stark design the chest plate to keep the shrapnel away from his heart? Or should he have let Wong-Chu decide how Stark should live his life? I’ll let this analogy sink in. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2437 "2011-05-26T09:35:08Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > and he wound up in a cave WITH A BOX OF \*\*SCRAPS \*\*! Sorry, reflex. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2438 "2011-05-26T10:21:14Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > I was seeing it as the target is the saucy lady friend and the hapless gunslinger is the hapless gunslinger (euphemism version). All they want to do is have a bit of slightly risky fun, and whoops! the worst case scenario happens. Are they not allowed to medical care because they were engaging in risky behaviour? Quite the opposite. I think they should get all the medical care and education before and after the (f)riskiness. This pretense though that it’s reasonable that adults participating in this behavior are shocked when conception can occur even when precautions are taken is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2439 "2011-05-26T10:39:56Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Quite the opposite. I think they should get all the medical care and education before and after the (f)riskiness. > > This pretense though that it’s reasonable that adults participating in this behavior are shocked when conception can occur even when precautions are taken is ridiculous. What has their level of shock got to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2440 "2011-05-26T11:10:01Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > What has their level of shock got to do with it? A number of people have cited the lack of intent to conceive as support for the right to abort. We don’t even accept this from teens when they engage in risky behavior when they know the consequences. And we don’t cut them slack when the consequences come due either and _they’re_ not competent adults. And we don’t let them argue that they’re being “punished” by insisting they deal with the consequences. You don’t get to play the “I didn’t mean to” card. IMO, you engage in the behavior with knowledge of the consequences. You make sure you’ve taken advantage of every family planning service and educational resource before and after the pregnancy. By frequently using said support services, you take advantage of early detection and if you decide that abortion is how you need to resolve the pregnancy, then you get it take care of by trained and experience professionals and are given ample access to counseling before and after the procedure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=121) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=123)