# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 123
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2441 "2011-05-26T11:21:10Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > A number of people have cited the lack of intent to conceive as support for the right to abort. We don’t even accept this from teens when they engage in risky behavior when they know the consequences. And we don’t cut them slack when the consequences come due either and _they’re_ not competent adults. And we don’t let them argue that they’re being “punished” by insisting they deal with the consequences. > > You don’t get to play the “I didn’t mean to” card. > > IMO, you engage in the behavior with knowledge of the consequences. You make sure you’ve taken advantage of every family planning service and educational resource before and after the pregnancy. **By frequently using said support services, you take advantage of early detection and if you decide that abortion is how you need to resolve the pregnancy, then you get it take care of by trained and experience professionals and are given ample access to counseling before and after the procedure.** We accept that people fuck up from time to time (to err is human), and they should be given the opportunity to fix things they way they think is best. For some people, abortion is their best option. For some people, it isn’t. Having the choice available in your bolded section means that people can deal with the consequences of their mistakes in a manner acceptable to them, and in a safe way. So, yay choice is what I’m getting at here. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2442 "2011-05-26T11:52:27Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > It is a human though. There is no non-human fetus. If 2 humans created it it’s a fricking human!!! Don’t you get that? To which you will reply with the not a person argument:rolleyes: It contains human lif just as the sperm does, but it is not yet a human being as it is not yet functioning as a full human being. And why not work hard to see that conception can be prevented. Or the very least…how many of the born children are you sacrificing to support? Are you living on the basic necessities so all the born children can have a healthy and good life, or do you just talk the talk so others can make a life time sacrifice, because you believe a few cells are already a human being. Would you pay the same price for a horse’s embryo as you would for a full grown horse? Biologically it is the same. There is sepration of state and religion, in this country so the law isn’t based on one’s religion. No one can force a woman to abort or take the morning after pill. But a woman who cannot at the time nor want a child at the time should not have to bear children all her childbearing years. Is it better to have 5 children and see them slowly starve to death as in some 3d world countries, or don’t their lives matter to you? One can’t call it moral in one country and think it okay in others!! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2443 "2011-05-26T11:55:55Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > A sperm does not have human life. It’s something that a man produces. It’s not human. Are you saying a man doesn’t pass on human life then? If so then it cannot be a human life! Life began eons ago and is passed on through the parents. That is a fact! ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2444 "2011-05-26T11:59:48Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > If I hold a revolver with a million chambers to someone’s head and pull the trigger, do I avoid the consequences if they get “lucky”? I mean, I had no intent to kill them and the odds were very much against the negative outcome. What a strange analogy. If the person you’re holding the gun on get’s “lucky” do you mean s/he doesn’t get shot? Has the person taken any precautions from getting shot? Is s/he a willing participant? Does he have any reason to be in the position s/he is in? If you’re not intending to shoot the person than why are you holding a loaded gun to his/her head? Do you get off on that sort of thing? I’m having trouble relating this to sexual intercourse and unintended pregnancy. If the consequences in your analogy are that you avoid unintended pregnancy, then I suppose you will. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2445 "2011-05-26T12:06:35Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > A number of people have cited the lack of intent to conceive as support for the right to abort. We don’t even accept this from teens when they engage in risky behavior when they know the consequences. And we don’t cut them slack when the consequences come due either and _they’re_ not competent adults. And we don’t let them argue that they’re being “punished” by insisting they deal with the consequences. > > You don’t get to play the “I didn’t mean to” card. > > IMO, you engage in the behavior with knowledge of the consequences. You make sure you’ve taken advantage of every family planning service and educational resource before and after the pregnancy. By frequently using said support services, you take advantage of early detection and if you decide that abortion is how you need to resolve the pregnancy, then you get it take care of by trained and experience professionals and are given ample access to counseling before and after the procedure. You don’t think discovering you’re pregnant and having to deal with an abortion is a consequence? It is. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2446 "2011-05-26T12:12:43Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > You did not come from a zygote. > > You once were a zygote. > You did not come from an embryo. > > You once were an embryo. > You did not come from a fetus. > > You once were a fetus. > You did not come from an adolescent. > > You once were an adolescent. As you stated earlier…the sperm isn’t human, so that would mean the egg wasn’t human, so the product of the union wouldn’t be human either!! ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2447 "2011-05-26T12:12:55Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Are you saying a man doesn’t pass on human life then? If so then it cannot be a human life! Life began eons ago and is passed on through the parents. That is a fact! What:confused: Nooooooooooooo…I’m saying a sperm is not human. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2448 "2011-05-26T12:15:48Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It contains human lif just as the sperm does, but it is not yet a human being as it is not yet functioning as a full human being. And why not work hard to see that conception can be prevented. Or the very least…how many of the born children are you sacrificing to support?\*\* Are you living on the basic necessities so all the born children can have a healthy and good life, or do you just talk the talk so others can make a life time sacrifice, because you believe a few cells are already a human being.\*\* Would you pay the same price for a horse’s embryo as you would for a full grown horse? Biologically it is the same. > > There is sepration of state and religion, in this country so the law isn’t based on one’s religion. No one can force a woman to abort or take the morning after pill. But a woman who cannot at the time nor want a child at the time should not have to bear children all her childbearing years. Is it better to have 5 children and see them slowly starve to death as in some 3d world countries, or don’t their lives matter to you? One can’t call it moral in one country and think it okay in others!! Nice try but I didn’t create those kids and that’s not what we’re talking about here. You analogies ae so ridiculous BTW. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2449 "2011-05-26T12:16:50Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > As you stated earlier…the sperm isn’t human, so that would mean the egg wasn’t human, so the product of the union wouldn’t be human either!! Oh my goodness:smack: The sperm together with the egg is needed to create a human. The sperm alone and the egg alone are not human…:smack: ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2450 "2011-05-26T12:27:22Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > At 5 or 6 weeks it’s not a fetus yet. I actual think most biologists would call a fetus a human but I haven’t found any data either way. > Sure it’s a human in a certain stage of development , and until it’s born and separated from the mother, potential is an appropriate term. > It’s odd. Lynn provided a picture that showed, a chicken egg is not a chicken, and acorn is not a tree, and a zygote is not a person. > > Still, considering that zygote, the question “is it human?” seems to be a matter of species and DNA so the answer is clearly Yes! > Is it A human, is trickier. It’s DNA is unique so on the one hand it is, but if the question is more of a philosophical one , then it’s not clear. It has no brain or consciousness in those first few weeks. Do we consider people in comas to be human? Brain dead and kept on a ventilator, are they human? > I don’t think any of us get to say with any certainty that it is or isn’t A human, from a philosophical sense. We do get to say in a legal sense. No it’s not a person or citizen due equal protection of the law. But from a strictly scientific sense it is fully and uniquely human, even at the zygote stage. > > So it’s the independent thing? Inside the mother connected by the umbilical, not a human, but an hour later, when the umbilical is cut, it’s a human? Is that it. It would be hard to convince a lot of people of that. > What if the mother is clinically dead with the fetus still inside her, fully developed? Is it a baby then? > > It is tricky and a difficult hair to split. I’m not sure there is a definition of human other than the biological one. I believe whan a person is declared Brain dead it is then declared to be dead, and the undertaker is called in. At that point one can say it is a corpse. o(nce it cannot be brought back to life)! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2451 "2011-05-26T12:33:15Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > What:confused: Nooooooooooooo…I’m saying a sperm is not human. Then neither is a Fertile egg! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2452 "2011-05-26T12:34:41Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Nice try but I didn’t create those kids and that’s not what we’re talking about here. > You analogies ae so ridiculous BTW. I suggest you take a course in Biology! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2453 "2011-05-26T12:38:50Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Oh my goodness:smack: The sperm together with the egg is needed to create a human. The sperm alone and the egg alone are not human…:smack: They contain the human life, just as much as a fertile egg, The life of the sperm and egg contain human life when you look at the cells dividing in a petri dish you cannot say oh what a cute little human! Think about what you are saying!! It is a proven fact that human life is passed on through it’s parents and untill it is fully human it is not ‘a’ human being!!! The argument is called pro-life and pro-choice because of when LIFE BEGINS!!! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2454 "2011-05-26T12:49:51Z")
**Monavis** , if anyone needs to study biology here, I’d say it’s you. Egg and sperm cells are not individually human life because, being haploid cells, they each lack the requisite number of choromosones for human life (Forty-six, to remind you). Human sperm cells have only twenty-three chromosones. Human ova cells have twenty-three. 23 + 23 = 46 And that’s how it works – when the egg is fertilized by the sperm the resulting organism has DNA unique to itself, not identical to either father or mother, and has a full complement of 46 chromosones. And I suspect you knew that, and you knew that **classylady** didn’t know that, so you advanced the argument. Am I right? By the way, that leads to me to recall the old biology joke, “What does the ‘H’ in ‘Jesus H Christ’ stand for?” Answer: haploid. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2455 "2011-05-26T12:56:50Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > We accept that people fuck up from time to time (to err is human), and they should be given the opportunity to fix things they way they think is best. Except I can’t consider someone who has taken precautions to avoid pregnancy and has engaged in consensual sexual intercourse as “fucking up” whether the intercourse results in unintended pregnancy or not. But your point does stand for those who played russian roulette with pregnancy by engaging in unprotected intercourse. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2456 "2011-05-26T13:08:16Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > A number of people have cited the lack of intent to conceive as support for the right to abort. No, the lack of intent to conceive does not support the right to abortion. That is simply a reality that must be dealt with. What does support the right to abortion access is bodily autonomy. > [@](#): > > We don’t even accept this from teens when they engage in risky behavior when they know the consequences. And we don’t cut them slack when the consequences come due either and _they’re_ not competent adults. And we don’t let them argue that they’re being “punished” by insisting they deal with the consequences. > > You don’t get to play the “I didn’t mean to” card. As has already been pointed out, having to make a choice as to what to do about an unintended pregnancy is a consequence in engaging in risky behavior, whether that choice is carry to term or abort. That the risk was realized and the choice was to abort doesn’t mean the woman did not accept/deal with the consequences. I also think its interesting that you deem taking reasonable precautions to avoid pregnancy to be risky behavior. > [@](#): > > IMO, you engage in the behavior with knowledge of the consequences. You make sure you’ve taken advantage of every family planning service and educational resource before and after the pregnancy. By frequently using said support services, you take advantage of early detection and if you decide that abortion is how you need to resolve the pregnancy, then you get it take care of by trained and experience professionals and are given ample access to counseling before and after the procedure. Again, all reasonable ideals and ones I won’t disagree with. Not exactly reality as it now exists at this place and time. Imagine yourself today as a pregnant 15-year-old girl in South Dakota. Do you have ample access to counseling and medical aid before and after the procedure? What is hindering your access? How much practical sexual education did you receive before you found yourself pregnant? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2457 "2011-05-26T13:10:41Z")
> [@villa](#): > > So seriously, what was the point of asking me to rephrase, as I did four posts later, if you just planned to ignore it? Unlike you I don’t live on this message board so give me some time. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2458 "2011-05-26T13:18:47Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > This pretense though that it’s reasonable that adults participating in this behavior are shocked when conception can occur even when precautions are taken is ridiculous. Really? Are you not shocked when someone T-bones your car in an intersection? Why wouldn’t you be expecting that? The odds of being in a car accident are quite good? Probably better than getting a woman pregnant who is taking the pill. Even better, if she were older and has been using BC for many years. Knowing full well that my BC method is not guaranteed 100% (which one is), I’d still be surprised to find myself pregnant, considering the odds are quite low. Why that should preclude me from availing myself of an abortion, if I didn’t want the pregnancy I acted reasonably to avoid, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2459 "2011-05-26T13:19:29Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Unlike you I don’t live on this message board so give me some time. Yeah, 755 posts since 4-30-11, an average of ~30 posts per day. I can see your argument is well substantiated. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2460 "2011-05-26T13:23:28Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Unlike you I don’t live on this message board so give me some time. That’s amusing considering \*\*villa \*\*has 37 posts in this thread to your 460+ posts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=122) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=124)