# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 127
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2521 "2011-05-27T05:14:08Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > There have been plenty of cites in here showing that almost all later abortions are done because the fetus has some sort of devastating issue. Not to mention that in many of the remaining cases, they are early-to-mid second trimester abortions unconscionably delayed due to the meddling of pro-life forces that are constantly striving to use every little wedge they can get to make abortion harder and less safe. There are only two sides in the US right now, AV. You are either pro-choice, or you’re with the pro-lifers. If you’re with them, unfortunately, you’re with all of them, because all of the “reasonable restrictions on elective abortions” and “access to health care and contraceptives” people are on the pro-choice side already, with vanishingly few exceptions and almost none I can think of in politics. Lest you think I am playing partisan games, I could make the exact same accusation going the opposite direction with regards to firearms. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2522 "2011-05-27T07:41:11Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > And as long as people continue to try to push permissible abortions past the point where I consider the fetus enough of a person worth defending, I’ll keep doing so. The problem is, the “point” that you consider anything worth anything is irrelevant in the face of real women with real pregnancies in real crises. Your consideration of the worth of a fetus flies directly in the face of a real family considering whether or not they can face months of a pregnancy carrying a fetus that will never live, or will live only briefly and in agony. Your consideration of the worth of a fetus flies directly in the face of a woman considering whether or not her cancer treatment can wait another 14, 18, 20 weeks. I saw a picture from a protest sign just this evening that said “politicians make lousy physicians.” Not only is that true, uninvolved bystanders make even worse ones. The only fetus you have any reasonable claim to determine the worth of is the one inside your own uterus. Beyond that, you’re meddling into real people’s lives, imposing your own beliefs in a fashion that has real world consequences that you will never ever bear. Why are you and your considerations possibly that important? ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2523 "2011-05-27T10:21:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So, AV, what do you think would happen if all abortion laws among the various U.S. states ceased to exist? Worst-case scenario. Just curious. Sorry, the hypothetical case of a 1000 monkeys flying out my butt is soaking up all the time for the hypothetical queue. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Seriously, do you think people have abortions past your personal comfort zone just because they were too lazy to get around to it? There have been plenty of cites in here showing that almost all later abortions are done because the fetus has some sort of devastating issue. Would you rather these be brought to term, perhaps risking the life of the woman, certainly costing quite a bit of money, only so the parents can watch it die and perhaps suffer as it does so? It’s not merely about comfort zone. It’s about moral stance. The more the fetus resembles a person, the more I am morally obligated to influence society in the direction of focusing maximal resources towards education, early detection and early resolution, and away from late term abortions. Pretty sure I’ve said more than once that the health of the mother is major factor. If I failed to do so, I’m doing so now. I’d certainly also factor in the chances of quality of life if there are serious defects with the fetus. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Not to mention that in many of the remaining cases, they are early-to-mid second trimester abortions unconscionably delayed due to the meddling of pro-life forces that are constantly striving to use every little wedge they can get to make abortion harder and less safe. > > There are only two sides in the US right now, AV. You are either pro-choice, or you’re with the pro-lifers. If you’re with them, unfortunately, you’re with all of them, because all of the “reasonable restrictions on elective abortions” and “access to health care and contraceptives” people are on the pro-choice side already, with vanishingly few exceptions and almost none I can think of in politics. > > Lest you think I am playing partisan games, I could make the exact same accusation going the opposite direction with regards to firearms. I oppose the pro-life people even more strongly. I certainly support unrestricted access to first trimester abortions even in the case of underage minors. > [@tumbleddown](#): > > The problem is, the “point” that you consider anything worth anything is irrelevant in the face of real women with real pregnancies in real crises. Your consideration of the worth of a fetus flies directly in the face of a real family considering whether or not they can face months of a pregnancy carrying a fetus that will never live, or will live only briefly and in agony. Your consideration of the worth of a fetus flies directly in the face of a woman considering whether or not her cancer treatment can wait another 14, 18, 20 weeks. > > I saw a picture from a protest sign just this evening that said “politicians make lousy physicians.” Not only is that true, uninvolved bystanders make even worse ones. The only fetus you have any reasonable claim to determine the worth of is the one inside your own uterus. Beyond that, you’re meddling into real people’s lives, imposing your own beliefs in a fashion that has real world consequences that you will never ever bear. > > Why are you and your considerations possibly that important? Wipe the foam off your mouth. My considerations are important because I have a vote and I can influence the votes of others. If you want to change my mind, you’ll have to do more than stamp your feet and utter axioms you consider non-negotiable. Rights are ALWAYS a tradeoff between or among individuals and society. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2524 "2011-05-27T11:39:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > **Monavis** , if anyone needs to study biology here, I’d say it’s you. Egg and sperm cells are not individually human life because, being haploid cells, they each lack the requisite number of choromosones for human life (Forty-six, to remind you). Human sperm cells have only twenty-three chromosones. Human ova cells have twenty-three. > > 23 + 23 = 46 > > And that’s how it works – when the egg is fertilized by the sperm the resulting organism has DNA unique to itself, not identical to either father or mother, and has a full complement of 46 chromosones. > > And I suspect you knew that, and you knew that **classylady** didn’t know that, so you advanced the argument. Am I right? > > By the way, that leads to me to recall the old biology joke, “What does the ‘H’ in ‘Jesus H Christ’ stand for?” Answer: haploid. I was pointing out that" human life" began eons ago, it is true that the fertile egg is a human egg, but not a human being, it is not developed any more than a fertile chicken egg can be called a chicken, a pollenated apple blossom an apple, or a fetus of any animal, until it can be recognized as that. If one looks at the early stages of many animals (even a frog) it is hard to tell what species it is. Both the egg and sperm do contain human componants, but when united they are not yet a human being. I happened to see a early pregnancy when I had 2 miss carriages years ago, and there was no way to recognize them as a human being. Had they stayed in the womb for several weeks more , then yes, they would have developed into a person,at that stage one couldn’t even determine the sex. It surely could not be called a baby, no more than a fertile egg could be called a chicken! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2525 "2011-05-27T11:54:01Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I was thinking along the lines of someone from an accident or disease who is taken to the hospital and supported by machines, but has no brain activity. > > We normally wouldn’t call them a corpse, until someone decides to turn off the machines. It’s interesting how and why we draw the lines of person hood. After one can be recognized as a person, I believe it is a person, born or not, yet there are circumstances when it can be the chioice of the mother or the unborn (at that stage child) and I believe it is the law, unless the mother’s life is at stake. If a woman has carried to that stage, then in my opinion she has given her consent,but if it is her life or the unborn’s life that is her decision as long as it is legal.She may have other children to consider. There are many circumstances that other’s may not be aware of, such as if the mother has cancer etc.. A born person is a person until it can no longer live.I could be wrong , but I understand that if there is no brain activity it is then declared dead. In some children born that are called born with out a brain, they still have a brain stem, so some of the functions work for awhile. and in those cases (I believe it is most cases) the parents want the child and it is a very difficult time for them. When a person dies we say,"he or she was a nice (or not) a nice person…past tense! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2526 "2011-05-27T12:02:53Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I knew that Bricker. I stated so in my post above. I’m not the idiot here. i stated in simple terms that a sperm and an egg is needed to create a human. A sperm by itself does not make a human. Yes, but the sperm does contain human life and the pro-lifers say it is when life begins…Life began eons ago, and is passed on trhough the parents. The componants are in a fertile egg, but as a hen’s egg is not considered a chicken, a fertile egg is not called a" person" or a baby! They are ‘expecting’ it to grow into a baby(person)!! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2527 "2011-05-27T12:07:35Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I’m going to send you some old Biology text books from Grade 10 Biology class. Aren’t you embarrassed by what you claimed? No I am not embarrassed because you do not understand my point! I am talking about human “Life” which the pro\_lifers use, and it is a proven fact that even your life was passed on to you through your ancestors!!! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2528 "2011-05-27T12:16:38Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Oh my goodness. You are annoying. An egg that has been fertilized by a sperm is human nitwit. I realize when name calling starts it shows the person is not trying to make a point, or learn anything, so i will take that with a grain of salt. I keep trying to tell you that a sperm contains (human life) that you seem so intent on defending ,but yet have told me how many of the born children you are sacrificing to help through adulthood, physically, finacially, and emotionally. Are you willing to pay more taxes to support the ones who cannot care for their children,are you going with out any or all luxeries to support them when they are already born. If not in my opinion(and I do have a right to my opinion) you are just pro-birth not pro-life. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2529 "2011-05-27T12:19:22Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > I think you vastly oversimplify the reasons that we don’t have comprehensive healthcare in rural regions. It’s hard enough to get a GP to some of those areas. No, you need to watch this Frontline special called “The Last Abortion Clinic”. There has been a concerted effort ever since Roe v. Wade to completely remove women’s clinics and it has been astoundingly successful. There are places in the South where women have to drive 3 hours to get services because clinics in their area were shut down. With the wait laws on the books, they would have to make two trips, which is hard to do if you have a crappy job that won’t give you time off. This is exactly their anti-choice’s people scheme. > **[The Last Abortion Clinic | FRONTLINE](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/clinic/?autoplay&autoplay)** > > How, despite “Roe v. Wade,” anti-abortion advocates successfully led campaigns to pass multiple state laws limiting access to abortion. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2530 "2011-05-27T12:27:16Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > It’s not merely about comfort zone. It’s about moral stance. The more the fetus resembles a person, the more I am morally obligated to influence society in the direction of focusing maximal resources towards education, early detection and early resolution, and away from late term abortions. > > Pretty sure I’ve said more than once that the health of the mother is major factor. If I failed to do so, I’m doing so now. I’d certainly also factor in the chances of quality of life if there are serious defects with the fetus. > . Fortunately the number show us that left to choose for themselves that’s pretty much what happens. Most abortions in the first trimester and early 2nd, before viability. I think the ones that happen after that are primarily health issues, birth defects, etc. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2531 "2011-05-27T12:30:01Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > No, you need to watch this Frontline special called “The Last Abortion Clinic”. There has been a concerted effort ever since Roe v. Wade to completely remove women’s clinics and it has been astoundingly successful. There are places in the South where women have to drive 3 hours to get services because clinics in their area were shut down. With the wait laws on the books, they would have to make two trips, which is hard to do if you have a crappy job that won’t give you time off. This is exactly their anti-choice’s people scheme. > > [The Last Abortion Clinic | FRONTLINE](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/view/?autoplay) Rather than try to overturn Roe vs Wade they work to make that choice more and more difficult in other ways, and through local laws. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2532 "2011-05-27T12:31:33Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > After one can be recognized as a person, I believe it is a person, born or not, yet there are circumstances when it can be the chioice of the mother or the unborn (at that stage child) and I believe it is the law, unless the mother’s life is at stake. If a woman has carried to that stage, then in my opinion she has given her consent,but if it is her life or the unborn’s life that is her decision as long as it is legal.She may have other children to consider. There are many circumstances that other’s may not be aware of, such as if the mother has cancer etc.. > > A born person is a person until it can no longer live.I could be wrong , but I understand that if there is no brain activity it is then declared dead. In some children born that are called born with out a brain, they still have a brain stem, so some of the functions work for awhile. and in those cases (I believe it is most cases) the parents want the child and it is a very difficult time for them. When a person dies we say,"he or she was a nice (or not) a nice person…past tense! Not really an important or relevant tangent anyway. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2533 "2011-05-27T13:09:15Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > [The Last Abortion Clinic | FRONTLINE](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/view/?autoplay) This is a very good video, I watched it a while back and really enjoyed it. Well, enjoyed is not the right term. It made me really angry, but the sneaky little ways that states have been trying to get around Roe V. Wade is really infuriating and enlightening. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2534 "2011-05-27T13:24:26Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Sorry, the hypothetical case of a 1000 monkeys flying out my butt is soaking up all the time for the hypothetical queue. Meh, that’s a chickenshit answer. C’mon, all U.S. abortion laws gone… what happens, worst case? Or, if that seems too far-fetched, what about a preliminary step first - what if Americans who demand laws based on little more than their religious beliefs lost most of their influence? ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2535 "2011-05-27T13:38:03Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > No, you need to watch this Frontline special called “The Last Abortion Clinic”. There has been a concerted effort ever since Roe v. Wade to completely remove women’s clinics and it has been astoundingly successful. There are places in the South where women have to drive 3 hours to get services because clinics in their area were shut down. With the wait laws on the books, they would have to make two trips, which is hard to do if you have a crappy job that won’t give you time off. This is exactly their anti-choice’s people scheme. > > [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/view/?autoplay](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/view/?autoplay) I understand there are states that do this. I’m not sure what can be done short of a constitutional amendment that would stop states from overlaying additional requirements on the abortion process. Take a look at a map of the midwest. There are states where no matter where you put a clinic, people would have a long drive to get there and often these folks don’t have transportation reliable enough that they’d risk a trip outside the county. I think urban folks don’t really understand the different level of civilization a lot of these rural areas are stuck in. In many of them Aunt Bea and Andy would be quite comfortable. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2536 "2011-05-27T13:45:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Meh, that’s a chickenshit answer. C’mon, all U.S. abortion laws gone… what happens, worst case? > > Or, if that seems too far-fetched, what about a preliminary step first - what if Americans who demand laws based on little more than their religious beliefs lost most of their influence? So a hundred monkey’s worth? As long as we’re talking hypotheticals, it’s a hell of a lot more likely in my mind in a country where with minor qualifications, anyone 18 or over can vote their conscience, that the right-thinking minority loses most of _its_ influence. Personally I think the question is pretty damn arrogant. Axioms are essentially religious beliefs. At some base level, we all believe what we believe. Undo that and even the most logically constructed arguments fall like a house of cards. Plenty of people think their position is “only logical”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2537 "2011-05-27T14:24:11Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > I understand there are states that do this. I’m not sure what can be done short of a constitutional amendment that would stop states from overlaying additional requirements on the abortion process. Some so-called “activist” judges might be useful, to hand down decisions that say in effect, “what you’re doing is perverting the spirit of the law, so cut it out!” > [@](#): > > Take a look at a map of the midwest. There are states where no matter where you put a clinic, people would have a long drive to get there and often these folks don’t have transportation reliable enough that they’d risk a trip outside the county. So things are hard in some places. Why make them harder? > [@](#): > > Personally I think the question is pretty damn arrogant. Axioms are essentially religious beliefs. At some base level, we all believe what we believe. Undo that and even the most logically constructed arguments fall like a house of cards. Plenty of people think their position is “only logical”. Yeah, that’s all well and good, but how about answering the question? Suppose a state like South Dakota passes some truly egregious law (i.e. before a woman can get an abortion, she must volunteer for a week at a neonatal ICU) that (eventually) gets SCOTUS to crack the whip, declaring that _all_ laws restricting abortion in the first trimester are null and void. No more waiting periods, no more parental notification - nothing. What happens as a result? ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2538 "2011-05-27T14:54:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What, you’re inviting another round of the definition game, where you can say abortion is an important issue to the whole of society, but not a “major” issue (or maybe it _is_ a major issue, but you never actually _said_ the word “major”…) Again, show me where I said “abortion is an important issue to the whole of society”. In fact, show me where I said “abortion is a major issue”. Time and post number, please. If you’re not going to do that, then you’d be well served not engaging in this straw man anymore, though I suspect you won’t do any of aforementioned ask and will continue on this path. While I’m waiting, I suppose I’ll take this time to quote myself so we can all see what I really said. [QUOTE=Me] Gay marriage ranks lower on the totem poll than does abortion. Abortion is a much bigger issue in American politics than is gay marriage. [/quote] [QUOTE=Me] [Abortion is] significant enough to cause more people to vote Republican than they otherwise would. [/quote] [QUOTE=Me] Because “more important than gay marriage” doesn’t mean “the most important issue”. [/quote] You’re welcome. > [@](#): > > If abortion a major issue or not? Was it ever a major issue or not? When you want to start responding to something I actually said, feel free. > [@](#): > > Well, I’d already expanded my query to state races. It’s not important. It absolutely is important. > [@](#): > > Okay, and how many races, at any level, were decided by abortion alone? I get that it’s generally presumed the Republican candidate will be opposed to abortion and the Democrat will be in favour of choice (of course, this can vary wildly) and some people might vote for the Republican on that basis alone (the Democrat too, I assume)… Was there ever a situation in the primaries where one Republican candidate beat out rivals for being “more” pro-life than they? Virtually any election in the South and midwest. > [@](#): > > I dunno, just trying to evaluate the electoral impact of abortion. One of your cites says one in five Americans are influenced by it, which I’ll absolutely grant is significant, but it doesn’t quite get to the “whole of society” level. First of all, my cite didn’t say that one in five Americans are influenced by abortion. Somewhere around half of all Americans take abortion into consideration when voting, and 19% of all Americans vote solely on the abortion issue. Second of all, I’m **still** waiting for you to show me where I said “the whole of society cares about abortion” os something similar. > [@](#): > > Still not the “whole” of society, though. Even if you double that to two-in-five to hypothetically include voters who consider the abortion issue while voting. Try re-reading what I type out again. > [@](#): > > Well, their remedy is a slower process (and I never said otherwise) of voting for and contributing to the most-pro-life candidates in the primaries, the most pro-life candidates in the elections for president and senator, and expressing support for the appointment of pro-life justices to re-evaluate or over-ride _Roe_. I guess right off the bat, Rick Santorum _should_ have a minimum of 20% support, being the most pro-life Republican candidate thus far (as far as I know), but I guess we’ll see how it shakes out over the next few months. Why do you keep mentioning Rick Santorum? > [@](#): > > Yes, I can read the wiki page, too. Apparently, you can’t. > [@](#): > > You mean _were_ invalidated? If not, I don’t understand this statement. Yes, that’s what I meant. > [@](#): > > Anyway, just for laughs, let’s look at the states where abortion was legal prior to _Roe_ or legal with a “woman’s health” exception, which I figure means “legal if you can get a doctor to sign off on it.” That’s 19 states, represented on the “Abortion in the Unites States” wiki page’s map in yellow, green and blue. And now, just for laughs, I will compare that map to the electoral college 1976 map, which gives a rough indication of population distribution by state. > > The 19 states, if I add right… 9+6+45+4+7+7+6+9+12+12+8+13+12+10+3+41+14+3+4 = 225, out of 528. > > So, _very_ roughly… 225/528 ~= 42% population lived in states who access to abortion was minimally affected by _Roe_ (and that doesn’t even count women in the 31 other states who knew how to procure an abortion anyway). That sounds like more than enough for _Roe_ to qualify as an idea whose time had come. So let me make sure I have this correct. You’ve redefined the women’s health exception to mean “at the discretion of the physician”, have thusly assumed this to be true and have then proceded to argue that states with a health exception on the books really treated this as a sweeping legalization of abortion, which Roe v. Wade was and, as a result when Roe v. Wade came around, then nothing really changed? Hmmm, really? I don’t think so. Prior to 1973, only four states allowed for unrestricted abortion-- New York, Washington, Hawaii and Alaska-- which accounted for 57 electoral votes, which works out to about 10.8% of the population living in states which laws which weren’t affected by Roe v. Wade. > [@](#): > > And of course, I cheerfully admit the statistical goofiness of the above. My point is that abortion rights wasn’t something American society “as a whole” didn’t want or wasn’t ready for let alone crammed down their throats, as the saying goes. I know it’s popular to hold up _Roe_ as an example of “activist judges” and such, but let’s be honest - American society didn’t crumble or warp because of _Roe_… I’m going to quote Ginsburg here: Roe, I believe, would have been more acceptable as a judicial decision if it had not gone beyond a ruling on the extreme statute before the Court. The political process was moving in the early 1970s, not swiftly enough for advocates of quick, complete change, but majoritarian institutions were listening and acting. Heavy-handed judicial intervention was difficult to justify and appears to have provoked, not resolved, conflict. [/quote] ^ > [@](#): > > …nor did _Roe_ represent a radical departure from what already existed in a significant part of the U.S. Explain to me again how many states had laws prior to 1973 which left abortion legal upon request? Because, you know, I’m pretty sure that number is four. I don’t know what kind of ridiculous arugment you’re on, but you’re going to be hard pressed to argue legal upon request was anything other than a “radical departure” from what already existed in a significant part of the U.S. Hell, even most supporters of Roe v. Wade will tell you that. > [@](#): > > So is abortion a “major” issue or not? Is it really that inappropriate for me (a strawman, as it were) to infer that “more important… than… gay marriage” qualifies as “major”? _points above_ > [@Zeriel](#): > > If you’re with them, unfortunately, you’re with all of them, because all of the “reasonable restrictions on elective abortions” and “access to health care and contraceptives” people are on the pro-choice side already, with vanishingly few exceptions and almost none I can think of in politics. This is an **absolute** lie, full stop. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2539 "2011-05-27T15:01:44Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > And as long as people continue to try to push permissible abortions past the point where I consider the fetus enough of a person worth defending, I’ll keep doing so. Then you should be focused on ending abortion restrictions because as I’ve already demonstrated, those restrictions invariably push abortions later into the pregnancy by severely limiting access to comprehensive reproductive services. It seems to me that you’d be happiest with an abortion policy much like that of the Netherlands with a complete abortion restriction after 24 weeks and a partial restriction at 21 weeks. It’s important to realize, however, that the Dutch got there not by making abortion difficult to access, but by making contraception affordable (free, as a matter of fact) and comprehensive family-planning and sexual education a priority in an effort to [**reduce the need for abortion**](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7971545). It should also be noted that because of this access to early term abortion the need for later term abortion is virtually non-existent. Although, I can’t find any answers to what happens when a Dutch woman discovers her cancer has returned 25 weeks into her pregnancy or that she is carrying a 25-week hydrocephalic fetus. I’m not at all comfortable with preventing the woman from terminating the pregnancy at her discretion in those instances. In the Netherlands, _unplanned pregnancy_ is correctly deemed to be the crux of the problem and that is what the Dutch have focused on eliminating. Given the fact that no other country has a lower abortion rate, despite a restrictive abortion policy, it should be obvious where your efforts and support should lie if you want to achieve that which you say is important to you. It would be much easier for me to accept your position if you’re weren’t so eager to condemn women (the earlier girl from South Dakota, for instance) who have not been provided easy access to contraception and reproductive education. Although, to be honest, even the Netherlands’ policy flies in the face of the concept of bodily autonomy that I personally deem inviolable. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/2540 "2011-05-27T15:04:04Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Take a look at a map of the midwest. There are states where no matter where you put a clinic, people would have a long drive to get there and often these folks don’t have transportation reliable enough that they’d risk a trip outside the county. Presumably these people have access to hospitals? Why do abortions have to be performed in a clinic? What’s wrong with performing them wherever people usually obtain surgical medical services? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=126) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=128)